The mumbling toothless wreck that is Shane Macgowan

[firehazard]

I wouldn't say Bono was especially my mate, though we've been in each other's houses, done Lunch, got drunk together etc. But these days he prefers to do these things with Tony Blair.

Oh, it's tough being dumped by a mate, Mr C.
Just keep telling yourself that the man obviously has no taste in friends.

[Revsta]

Before I get into my pointless ranting I want to clear up that despite the title of this thread and the fact that I'm a wet behind the mouse n00b or whatever it is this thread isn't an attack on Shane. I've been a fan of Shane and of the pogues for as long as I can remember ( I can only remember up to about five minutes ago but I'm sure I've been a fan longer than that )

Aaaaaaaanyway...

I was bored so I thought I'd look up some of my favourite albums on Amazon and see what other people thought about them, two of my favourites being Hell's ditch and Shane's first solo album the snake. I found that most of the people who reviewed these albums ( and seemed to be big Pogues fans ) seemed to all say how the albums are ruined by Shane's bad voice, that Shane shouldn't have drank so much so he'd be able to give a clearer presentation of his lyrics. This kind of shocked me as I think very differntly about the progression/decay of Shane's voice. The I cam here and was surprised to find the same kind of views.

Understand I'm not attacking any of you here and I can definetly see how you'd miss the early lively yelping Shane but this sentiment of,

'Oh yes he's a great artist but he really should stop getting drunk before gigs and he really should sort his teeth out'

I can't see how people can think that way. To me personally I found that the more Shane showed the signs of his excesses the better he sounded. I mean he may just mumble drunkenly these days but there's so much life gone into that drunken mumble, it tells a story just by itself no matter what the words are. It may be less clear than his early days but to me it's damn more soulful and beautiful.

Just because his voice tells a story of the life he lives, doesn't mean that if you turned on the radio and heard his newer material, and weren't familiar with Shane you'd think he sounded good. It's the fact that he used to sound amazing that makes you think that he still sounds good

And now on to the TEETH ( or lack thereof ). Shane's physical condition is an important part of the artist he is. He knows he doesn't look like Johnny Depp, he knows he looks like he's just crawled out of the ground but he'd rather that than play the attractiveness game like so many other bonos and whoeverthefuckelses. He's like one of the true great artists , they were all fucking scruffy ugly bastards. It's a case of martyring yourself, your comfort, your looks, your voice, for the benefit of your audience. To have the strength of your convictions and to die by the bottle as you lived by it.

This is a bunch of hogwash. Just because Shane isn't Johnny Depp doesn't mean that he wasn't a strapping young lad in his youth that many of my girl friends have said had a really cute/handsome quality to it. You think Shane WANTED to lose all his teeth? I'm sure that the whole things is up to him, but saying that he's a better artist or he likes looking like shit is just pure ignorance. Shane is a nice respectable guy, and his teeth have rotted out of his head, and whether or not he's okay with it we don't know. He already remarked on possibly fixing them...

[Benno]

people like you cant understand
shane doesnt know his teeth look bad
because his mind is preoccupied
with getting fucked up, and making music
but mostly getting fucked up

[CraigBatty]

...shane doesnt know his teeth look bad...
but mostly getting fucked up

Fucking bullshit. Don't be such a callow twerp, Benno. Shane knows just exactly how, to SOME poeple, his dental facade is a source of aesthetic distress. What disengenous twaddle.
And speaking of getting constantly fucked-up, how's the alkymohol sobriety going? Well, I hope. And I DO mean that. I hope you are enjoying a period of drying out.

[James]

people like you cant understand
shane doesnt know his teeth look bad
because his mind is preoccupied
with getting fucked up, and making music
but mostly getting fucked up

I like your posts, they're like badly thought out haikus.

[Niall]

...shane doesnt know his teeth look bad...
but mostly getting fucked up

Fucking bullshit. Don't be such a callow twerp, Benno. Shane knows just exactly how, to SOME poeple, his dental facade is a source of aesthetic distress.

true fintan, can you remember with frank skinner in which said teeth were discussed?

[Tombstoneshoes]

This is a bunch of hogwash. Just because Shane isn't Johnny Depp doesn't mean that he wasn't a strapping young lad in his youth that many of my girl friends have said had a really cute/handsome quality to it. You think Shane WANTED to lose all his teeth? I'm sure that the whole things is up to him, but saying that he's a better artist or he likes looking like shit is just pure ignorance. Shane is a nice respectable guy, and his teeth have rotted out of his head, and whether or not he's okay with it we don't know. He already remarked on possibly fixing them...

I never said he WANTED to lose his teeth, , in fact that's exactly what I'm not saying. If you're thinking in terms of him saying to himself 'yeah I should get some fucked up teeth that'll make me a real artist' you're missing the point entirely of what I was saying and in fact you're thinking in the exact terms I was talking about. I'm not saying his current image makes him who he is or that he wanted to look like he looks but I am sticking my neck out so far as to say he'd rather live with the consequences of his excesses than not to have had the experience the excess gave him.

I'm saying I believe Shane would rather have experienced all of the booze/drugs/living he did and to suffer the consequences of those things than to have never done those things at all. ( in fact read the quote of his I posted he's pretty much saying exactly that, just a lot better ).

You seem to be thinking I meant it's important for Shane's teeth to be messed up but that's the opposite of what I meant, I meant that when measured against all of the great art his hard living has helped him create his teeth seem very unimportant. I'm saying that his teeth are a worthy casualty in the fight for true art. I'm arguing against the pricks who say , 'yeah he's a good artist BUT his teeth are too bad' which pisses me off because it's typical of the mindset that ( for want of a less corny term ) wants rock and roll so long as it's pretty and good, and are unable to deal with the inevitable dark side, people who only want the ups and are unable to take the downs.

This seems to be the argument I am getting, that Shane doesn't WANT to be a martyr for his art ( which was misunderstood, I don't mean I want Shane to die or be nailed to a cross or to walk on water or any of that shit ) ofcourse Shane doesn't WANT to die or even to lose his teeth but he's man enough to accept those as the inevitable consquences of the life he has lived and I he think he'd rather take all of that bad shit than to have avoided the life he lived altogther and to have just sat at home bitching on the internet like so many me's.

And yes I accept it sounds petty and stupid but I would feel a little let down if the guy were to fix his teeth, I'd understand that he was only human and I'm too gutless and preoccupied with trying to be 'attractive' to have his current dental style. I just feel that to fix his teeth now would be indicative of him drawing the line of how far he's willing to go for the life he leads. It's like the whole Jesus thing, discarding petty material cares for the greater prize, it's not that I prefer the way his teeth look or think they make him look 'cool' or anything it's just that to me it indicates that his priorities are in a higher place than dental hygeine, in that way he's like a spiritual leader even bitter little atheists like me can believe in.

And yes that rant was way to lenghty to give me time to go into the issue of his voice so I'll simply state that to say 'I ( or anyone else ) only like the way he sounds because of the way he used to sound' that's absolute bullshit.I like the way he sounds because all the elements that were most important to me in his music are still there and have if antyhing gotten stronger. I like Shane for his insight and his integrity not for his melody ( not saying to like him for the melodies he writes is wrong, just saying it's not primarily why I personally like the guy's stuff )

[kmurray105]

This thread is heavier than the seymour hersh thread.

[Revsta]

This is a bunch of hogwash. Just because Shane isn't Johnny Depp doesn't mean that he wasn't a strapping young lad in his youth that many of my girl friends have said had a really cute/handsome quality to it. You think Shane WANTED to lose all his teeth? I'm sure that the whole things is up to him, but saying that he's a better artist or he likes looking like shit is just pure ignorance. Shane is a nice respectable guy, and his teeth have rotted out of his head, and whether or not he's okay with it we don't know. He already remarked on possibly fixing them...

I never said he WANTED to lose his teeth, , in fact that's exactly what I'm not saying. If you're thinking in terms of him saying to himself 'yeah I should get some fucked up teeth that'll make me a real artist' you're missing the point entirely of what I was saying and in fact you're thinking in the exact terms I was talking about. I'm not saying his current image makes him who he is or that he wanted to look like he looks but I am sticking my neck out so far as to say he'd rather live with the consequences of his excesses than not to have had the experience the excess gave him.

I'm saying I believe Shane would rather have experienced all of the booze/drugs/living he did and to suffer the consequences of those things than to have never done those things at all. ( in fact read the quote of his I posted he's pretty much saying exactly that, just a lot better ).

You seem to be thinking I meant it's important for Shane's teeth to be messed up but that's the opposite of what I meant, I meant that when measured against all of the great art his hard living has helped him create his teeth seem very unimportant. I'm saying that his teeth are a worthy casualty in the fight for true art. I'm arguing against the pricks who say , 'yeah he's a good artist BUT his teeth are too bad' which pisses me off because it's typical of the mindset that ( for want of a less corny term ) wants rock and roll so long as it's pretty and good, and are unable to deal with the inevitable dark side, people who only want the ups and are unable to take the downs.

This seems to be the argument I am getting, that Shane doesn't WANT to be a martyr for his art ( which was misunderstood, I don't mean I want Shane to die or be nailed to a cross or to walk on water or any of that shit ) ofcourse Shane doesn't WANT to die or even to lose his teeth but he's man enough to accept those as the inevitable consquences of the life he has lived and I he think he'd rather take all of that bad shit than to have avoided the life he lived altogther and to have just sat at home bitching on the internet like so many me's.

And yes I accept it sounds petty and stupid but I would feel a little let down if the guy were to fix his teeth, I'd understand that he was only human and I'm too gutless and preoccupied with trying to be 'attractive' to have his current dental style. I just feel that to fix his teeth now would be indicative of him drawing the line of how far he's willing to go for the life he leads. It's like the whole Jesus thing, discarding petty material cares for the greater prize, it's not that I prefer the way his teeth look or think they make him look 'cool' or anything it's just that to me it indicates that his priorities are in a higher place than dental hygeine, in that way he's like a spiritual leader even bitter little atheists like me can believe in.

And yes that rant was way to lenghty to give me time to go into the issue of his voice so I'll simply state that to say 'I ( or anyone else ) only like the way he sounds because of the way he used to sound' that's absolute bullshit.I like the way he sounds because all the elements that were most important to me in his music are still there and have if antyhing gotten stronger. I like Shane for his insight and his integrity not for his melody ( not saying to like him for the melodies he writes is wrong, just saying it's not primarily why I personally like the guy's stuff )

I don't even know how to reply to this. Why don't you learn how to write properly then I can actually respond.

[Benno]

...shane doesnt know his teeth look bad...
but mostly getting fucked up

Fucking bullshit. Don't be such a callow twerp, Benno. Shane knows just exactly how, to SOME poeple, his dental facade is a source of aesthetic distress. What disengenous twaddle.
And speaking of getting constantly fucked-up, how's the alkymohol sobriety going? Well, I hope. And I DO mean that. I hope you are enjoying a period of drying out.

so you think that he looks that way on purpose?
maybe he looks in the mirror
(on the rare occaision)
and says "fuck i look haggard..."
then shortly after
"fuck, need a drink. Where's my crack?"
and he soon forgets about his teeth

looking THAT BAD isn't a "shtick"
it isnt done to impress anyone
because lord knows it doesnt
im sure the pogues would have beee more popular had he been better looking
actually i have friend who doesnt listen to them
just because of how terrible shane looks


and also, it goes very well
still not a drop
probably smoked 4 grams since i last posted...
which really isnt much

[Benno]

also, the problem here is that posts ar way too fucking long
no one is going to read all that

i think the ultimate summation of shane is this:

the 70s punk scene was highly self-destructive, shane was just unfortunate enough to survive

[dawson]

Benno, you say shane looks really bad and terrible and it doesnt impress anyone. Well it impresses me. So get your facts right before you start typing bullshit.

[CraigBatty]

...shane doesnt know his teeth look bad...

Again, Grasshopper - YOUR quote, not mine. Smoke a bit less, READ a bit more closely. And AGAIN, what utter fucking shite. You think he doesn't KNOW what they look like? Fuck, you're so fucking out of your teenaged fucking skull, it's a wonder you don't trip over yerslef. Even I was never that mentally mangled on the ganja.

...so you think that he looks that way on purpose?

No. No I don't. Do YOU?

...actually i have friend who doesnt listen to them
just because of how terrible shane looks

That'd be right - callow attracts shallow, and vice versa.

and also, it goes very well
still not a drop

...THAT bit I'm glad to hear about. Good, keep it up. You DO have my support you know in THAT endeavour.

probably smoked 4 grams since i last posted...
which really isnt much

Ah, given that your last post was only a few hours ago - YES IT IS! You WILL regret this behaviour later in life, even if you can't see it now. THis I can promise you with white-hot, iron-hard conviction and experience. But, hey, you know EVERYTHING at your age and are bullet-proof, so just carry the fuck on however you want.

Anyway, 'nough said. Peace out. Shalom. Good night and Good luck.

[Fr. McGreer]

I don't even know how to reply to this. Why don't you learn how to write properly then I can actually respond.

His writing seems ok to me, you missed out a question mark by the way.

Tombstoneshoes' views are put up for debate.

What do you mean "learn how to write"? That's shite. reply to his comments.

[DzM]

Looks like people need reminding that picking on grammar and being pedantic about spelling is the cheap way out of a debate. All that's left from there is calling each-other Nazis and declaring "Hitler" on the thread.

Try to respond to points where possible. Try not to be a pedant unless there's great comedy to be had, or you can't think of anything clever to say.

Now back to the mud slinging.