Earliest Pogues recordings?

[Kilmichael]

Just wondering, especially after all those old tapes were unearthed for the wonderful box set, what the earliest Pogues recordings in existence are? The Lost Decade mentions a demo recorded on 4-track at Justin Ward's flat in I think Nov 1982, but that the bass & drums didn't transfer properly. Does anyone know if this still exists? Any ideas as to the earliest live tracks? (I'm asking if 'anyone' knows, but of course hoping the sublime Mr C might answer. We really should club together to build a statue of the man).

[philipchevron]

Just wondering, especially after all those old tapes were unearthed for the wonderful box set, what the earliest Pogues recordings in existence are? The Lost Decade mentions a demo recorded on 4-track at Justin Ward's flat in I think Nov 1982, but that the bass & drums didn't transfer properly. Does anyone know if this still exists? Any ideas as to the earliest live tracks? (I'm asking if 'anyone' knows, but of course hoping the sublime Mr C might answer. We really should club together to build a statue of the man).

I look hideous in cement and/or bronze, but thanks for the thought.

My guess is the recordings mentioned in Ann Scanlon's book must be the demos which begin Disc 2 on the box set, also recorded at Justin Ward's flat, as the dates are only slightly out. We guesstimated them at early 1983, which wasn't so bad. I'm not sure about the bass and drums not "transferring" properly, but I do know myself and Jem Finer felt the mixes left a great deal to be desired, which is why we assigned Nick Robbins and Rob Keyloch to do new mixes of them in 2007, and it is these you hear on Disc Two.

It should further be noted that it is the Justin Ward version of "Streams of Whiskey" which turns up as the soundtrack to the "Streams of Whiskey" video on Poguevision, in its original mix, obviously. So a comparison can be made, at least with this song, between the 1982/1983 mix and the 2007 remix on the Box Set.

In any event, I'm almost certain these are the first Pogues recordings, or at least the first extant ones - there is some debate in-band as to whether there was a previous session with Justin Ward (perhaps even November 2002?). However, I do know that Phil Gaston made an extremely painful-sounding New Republicans cassette recording before that, but it's too unlistenable even for reasons of historic or curiosity value. I nixed the New Republicans (also known as The Noisy Boysies) recordings from the box set early on and made the decision that nothing featuring less than the six original Pogues would be up for consideration.

On the matter of live recordings, I may be wrong, but I've always understood the 100 Club, 1983, to be the first recorded Pogues live gig. Stan Brennan supplied me with the original tape of this but, after some deliberation, I realised that the vinyl bootleg 7" EP made of this many years ago was probably as good as would ever be rendered from that recording, so I let it go. As it happens, the earliest live recordings which actually made it as far as the box set, from Sweden in 1985 ("Waxies Dargle"/"Navigator"), are of the line-up in which I replaced Jem as banjo player, but this was more by accident than design. I felt inclined, ultimately, that as I could find no unexpectedly worthy recordings of "The Holy Ground", "Don't It Make My Brown Eyes Blue", "Me and Bobby McGee" or "King of the Bop" on the early Pogues live tapes, to just bypass them altogether. It's not as if the early shows have not been adequately exploited by the bootleggers over the years.

[bigron]

There is another very eary Pogues bootleg "Almost Live" which was recorded around the same time as "Live at the 100 Club". 14 tracks including Rocky Road to Dublin, The Holy Ground and a very early version of Dirty Old Town. Sound quality is also far superior to Live at the 100 Club.

[firehazard]

There is another very eary Pogues bootleg "Almost Live" which was recorded around the same time as "Live at the 100 Club". 14 tracks including Rocky Road to Dublin, The Holy Ground and a very early version of Dirty Old Town. Sound quality is also far superior to Live at the 100 Club.

There's a full track listing at pogueslive.com, which is an excellent resource for finding out about Pogues boots:
http://www.pogueslive.com/pogues/1983-84.htm

[Kilmichael]

You're far too modest Mr Chevron! I was actually thinking we could go for something in marble - maybe place it under Clery's clock??

As always, thanks for the info. Ann Scanlon states that the Nov '82 demo consisted of 'Waltzing Matilda', 'Poor Paddy' and 'Streams of Whiskey' and quotes Jem as saying the bass and drums didn't copy properly and it sounded 'folky'. She also lists another demo from about July 83, which I'd assumed was the source for the 4 tracks on Disc 2 of the box set, but who knows? One of the things I love about the Pogues is that the band themselves can't seem to agree what happened and when!

I appreciate it's the earliest that circulates, but I'm surprised the 100 Club gig is the first live recording that actually exists, as the band had been going for about a year by the time it was recorded. Not heard the vinyl EP but the bootleg CD is pretty good. Bigron, I was aware of the 'Almost Live' recording but haven't heard it. Who did the original version of 'The Holy Ground'? Or is it traditional?

But the real surprise here is the revelation that there is a New Republicans tape in existence!!! Can't believe we haven't heard of that before! Is it live or a demo, Mr C? Btw, I can completely understand the decision not to include any New Republicans tracks on the box set - cool tho it would have been to hear them. In the same way, although I like the LILT tracks, I'm glad you weren't tempted to include them - they're not the Pogues, imho.

Thanks again for the info.

[firehazard]

Who did the original version of 'The Holy Ground'? Or is it traditional?

It's a trad sea shanty, I do believe. Though I've never heard the Pogues' version.

[blogward]

I'm Justin Ward. The 1983 demo was recorded on a Teac 4-track over a weekend, but we had no proper mixer (!) which is why the bass and drums were a bit off. We did have to retune Jem's banjo down so he could play the 'Streams of Whiskey' solo at a lower speed. Good times.

[philipchevron]

I'm Justin Ward. The 1983 demo was recorded on a Teac 4-track over a weekend, but we had no proper mixer (!) which is why the bass and drums were a bit off. We did have to retune Jem's banjo down so he could play the 'Streams of Whiskey' solo at a lower speed. Good times.

Small masterworks Justin, small masterworks!

[Kilmichael]

I'm Justin Ward. The 1983 demo was recorded on a Teac 4-track over a weekend, but we had no proper mixer (!) which is why the bass and drums were a bit off. We did have to retune Jem's banjo down so he could play the 'Streams of Whiskey' solo at a lower speed. Good times.

Hi Justin, can you confirm if the 4-track demo is the recording featured at the start of Disc 2 of the box set, or a different (earlier?) session?
Thanks

[philipchevron]

I'm Justin Ward. The 1983 demo was recorded on a Teac 4-track over a weekend, but we had no proper mixer (!) which is why the bass and drums were a bit off. We did have to retune Jem's banjo down so he could play the 'Streams of Whiskey' solo at a lower speed. Good times.

Hi Justin, can you confirm if the 4-track demo is the recording featured at the start of Disc 2 of the box set, or a different (earlier?) session?
Thanks

Yes it is the same, though the box set features later mixes by Nick Robbins using pro-tools, because of JW's mixing difficulties

[Kilmichael]

I'm Justin Ward. The 1983 demo was recorded on a Teac 4-track over a weekend, but we had no proper mixer (!) which is why the bass and drums were a bit off. We did have to retune Jem's banjo down so he could play the 'Streams of Whiskey' solo at a lower speed. Good times.

Hi Justin, can you confirm if the 4-track demo is the recording featured at the start of Disc 2 of the box set, or a different (earlier?) session?
Thanks

Yes it is the same, though the box set features later mixes by Nick Robbins using pro-tools, because of JW's mixing difficulties

Thanks Philip. Do you know anything about the 'Early Demos' listed here? http://webspace.webring.com/people/os/s ... ogues.html

The tracklisting doesn't seem to tie in with any other demo session I'm aware of, and the 'Extended Version' of Dark Streets sounds interesting...