[Still] The President of these here United States of America

[Benno]

it's a good point Philip, i think that we can safely say that the true boss(es) never retired

And yet, remarkably, you claim not to be a conspiracy theorist.

Did they really retire DzM?
I'm not too sure about the Foreign Policy side of things... but I've always thought economic policies effected the broadest global trends so I've always paid the most attention to them.

Everyone who worked hard to push for policies which created the crisis have been promoted by Obama.
Summers - prevents congress from regulating derivatives, is now Chief Economic Advisor
Ruben - revokes Glass-Steigl, then leaves gov't and reaps the rewards, now Senior Economic Advisor
Geithner - Saw it all happen at the NY Fed...

You don't have to be a conspiracy theorist DzM... it's in fucking print.
Like Carlin said: "Americans like their bullshit right up front where they can smell it."
"Change" = "Bullshit" when it comes to Economics at least

Anyone know if the same sort of thing is going on in the Foreign Office?

[DzM]

it's a good point Philip, i think that we can safely say that the true boss(es) never retired

And yet, remarkably, you claim not to be a conspiracy theorist.

Did they really retire DzM?
I'm not too sure about the Foreign Policy side of things... but I've always thought economic policies effected the broadest global trends so I've always paid the most attention to them.

Everyone who worked hard to push for policies which created the crisis have been promoted by Obama.

Hyperbole much?

It's ridiculous to suggest that "the real bosses never retired" and then cite as examples people you don't like that have been promoted. If they were the "real bosses" then they would not have needed promotion. And if "everyone" has been promoted, then where is the main architect of these policies? Where is that Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged fan Greenspan? Why does he not have a cabinet seat or a senior adviser role?

In the same way that much of the Bush higher-level government were long-time careerists advancing their positions either in the government or private sectors, much of the Obama administration is also people with long histories and careers. This is not an example of "the real bosses" staying in power; it's an example of professionals in a field advancing within that field (please note that I am not making any judgment here about whether the policies they are advising or implementing are Good or Bad).

Unless ... wait ... Are you suggesting that the Real Bosses are not individuals but are, rather, bankers and economists? If that's the case, how would you suggest any administration approach an economic problem? Seek the advice of bakers and composers?

[DzM]

it's a good point Philip, i think that we can safely say that the true boss(es) never retired

And yet, remarkably, you claim not to be a conspiracy theorist.

Did they really retire DzM?
I'm not too sure about the Foreign Policy side of things... but I've always thought economic policies effected the broadest global trends so I've always paid the most attention to them.

Everyone who worked hard to push for policies which created the crisis have been promoted by Obama.

Hyperbole much?

Benno, this struck me as something you'd be interested in: http://www.anewwayforward.org/demonstrations/

It's an organization advocating for restructuring of the financial markets. They are advocating for breaking up the banks into smaller banks with new management and an adoption of the philosophy that "too big to fail" is so big that the free market can't properly function. They also argue that an oligarchy within the financial market has grown far too influential in government and regulation (would these be the Real Bosses you hint at?), and that steps should be taken to prevent such a cozy relationship in the future.

Read more about what their goal are: http://www.anewwayforward.org/the_idea/

I also very much recommend you take up reading The Baseline Scenario: http://baselinescenario.com/ . James Kwak and Simon Johnson have excellent credentials, have proposed interesting (and growing in popularity) ideas for how things should move forward, and blog on a regular basis to help non-economics wonks understand how we got here and what's happening now. They can help you critique the policies with actual arguments (con OR pro) instead of hyperbole.

[NewJerseyRich]

Since we got off topic in the Swine Flu thread, I thought i'd post over here.

Beano now I understand a little better where your coming from. BTW I happen to agree with your "New boss, same as the old boss" ideas. Check all of Obamas appointments, Czars (nice euphamisum), advisors. Aren't they almost ALL Clinton retreads? How the hell is that CHANGE?

[Clash Cadillac]

Since we got off topic in the Swine Flu thread, I thought i'd post over here.

Beano now I understand a little better where your coming from. BTW I happen to agree with your "New boss, same as the old boss" ideas. Check all of Obamas appointments, Czars (nice euphamisum), advisors. Aren't they almost ALL Clinton retreads? How the hell is that CHANGE?

As an Obama supporter, I likened Obama's selection of former Clinton cronies as a necessary evil. I felt he needed an organization with the experience of how to navigate the corridors of Washington to push through his agenda.

[NewJerseyRich]

Since we got off topic in the Swine Flu thread, I thought i'd post over here.

Beano now I understand a little better where your coming from. BTW I happen to agree with your "New boss, same as the old boss" ideas. Check all of Obamas appointments, Czars (nice euphamisum), advisors. Aren't they almost ALL Clinton retreads? How the hell is that CHANGE?

As an Obama supporter, I likened Obama's selection of former Clinton cronies as a necessary evil. I felt he needed an organization with the experience of how to navigate the corridors of Washington to push through his agenda.

Well I have to say I didn't support much of anything or anyone this last campaign of course DMZ outted me as leaning toward Ron Paul. But historically third party candidates just split the ticket for one side and push a close race in favor of one party.
Organization is one thing but he sold himself as the man with all the answers, the tool of change, the guy going to set Washington right. I'm sorry but you can't do that with old line Washington insiders.

[IrishRover]

are we goinna see em' toirture oimages oir noit?

[philipchevron]

are we goinna see em' toirture oimages oir noit?

Do we want to see them? Do we need to see 'em? I've seen the uncensored Abu Ghraib photos and, believe me, they did not add to or subtract from my existing fury, though they did make me a little nauseous.

[IrishRover]

well, they can't be woirse than prevoius oines oi guess, tois' noit as much aboiut the surface cointent oitself as foir what they represent oin the boigger poicture.. what we do need essentoially ois the change of the attoitude, tois' what US people voited foir and what OIbama proimoised to deloiver

[NewJerseyRich]

Uncensored Abu Ghraib photos are comparable to preschool pranks once you've watched what savages really are in the David Berg video among others.

[DzM]

Uncensored Abu Ghraib photos are comparable to preschool pranks once you've watched what savages really are in the David Berg video among others.

I assume that you mean Nick Berg, the first American to be decapitated and have video of that act posted to the Internet.

And yeah, "stress positions" and "hazing" are less shocking than decapitating a helpless bound captive. Shouldn't we be better than that though? Shouldn't we (presumably the Good Guys) strive to live up to our ideals regardless of what others do? Why is it acceptable for us to let somebody else dictate what our ideals are? Shouldn't we aspire to greatness regardless of how others act?

[NewJerseyRich]

Uncensored Abu Ghraib photos are comparable to preschool pranks once you've watched what savages really are in the David Berg video among others.

I assume that you mean Nick Berg, the first American to be decapitated and have video of that act posted to the Internet.

And yeah, "stress positions" and "hazing" are less shocking than decapitating a helpless bound captive. Shouldn't we be better than that though? Shouldn't we (presumably the Good Guys) strive to live up to our ideals regardless of what others do? Why is it acceptable for us to let somebody else dictate what our ideals are? Shouldn't we aspire to greatness regardless of how others act?

DzM thank you again for the assist.....I'm sorry I did confuse the names of two that I was thinking of.... Daniel Pearl NBC reporter and Nick Berg the American. I'm sorry but I'm not in that position so I can't say what I would do after seeing those videos. I would hope my training would give me strength to restrain myself but I can admit I don't know how I would react.
I don't think were "better then that" thats the type of thinking I feel leads to a holier then thou attitude the globe thinks we have. Were not perfect, far from it. We should strive to be better but how the hell can you blame some kids put in that situation. Hell they've done the same thing in US (and from what I hear UK) college campuses to people they're supposed to be friends of (hazing).
I know you didn't mention it but please don't anyone bring up the Geneva Convention...... the Geneva Convention does not apply to these people.

[DzM]

I know you didn't mention it but please don't anyone bring up the Geneva Convention...... the Geneva Convention does not apply to these people.

Why doesn't it? The Geneva Convention is an agreement between countries that prisoners deserve certain basic standards of treatment? Doesn't it just make us giant hypocrites if we say that "Foreign Guy A deserves humane treatment as defined by the convention we and others have agreed to, but Foreign Guy B does not deserve it"?

Ultimately one of the purposes of our setting a basic standard for treatment of our prisoners is/was to help assure our own combatants that they stood a good chance of being treated well should they be captured. Surely by treating captured combatants poorly we are more-or-less giving our endorsement to The Bad Guys to treat our guys poorly? And as we've already seen, there's a race to the lowest standard once people start doing tit-for-tat humiliation/stress/torture/killing.

Again, shouldn't we live up to our ideals regardless of the provocation? If we're willing to compromise one set of ideals when provoked, doesn't that imply we're willing to compromise all of our ideals if badly enough provoked? I'd rather reach for an unattainable ideal than race others to the bottom of the trash heap.

[NewJerseyRich]

I know you didn't mention it but please don't anyone bring up the Geneva Convention...... the Geneva Convention does not apply to these people.

Why doesn't it? The Geneva Convention is an agreement between countries that prisoners deserve certain basic standards of treatment? Doesn't it just make us giant hypocrites if we say that "Foreign Guy A deserves humane treatment as defined by the convention we and others have agreed to, but Foreign Guy B does not deserve it"?

Ultimately one of the purposes of our setting a basic standard for treatment of our prisoners is/was to help assure our own combatants that they stood a good chance of being treated well should they be captured. Surely by treating captured combatants poorly we are more-or-less giving our endorsement to The Bad Guys to treat our guys poorly? And as we've already seen, there's a race to the lowest standard once people start doing tit-for-tat humiliation/stress/torture/killing.

Again, shouldn't we live up to our ideals regardless of the provocation? If we're willing to compromise one set of ideals when provoked, doesn't that imply we're willing to compromise all of our ideals if badly enough provoked? I'd rather reach for an unattainable ideal than race others to the bottom of the trash heap.

Sorry I'm not as good a man as you are. I personally can not treat those linked to roadside bombs, someone who shoots at troops and hides in homes with women and children, someone who decapitates my brother while wearing a hood on the internet with decorum.....which if you follow the time line happened far prior to our school boy pranks that honestly pale in comparison. I'm not looking to sink to the lowest common denominator but I can't blame anyone who does after what they've seen. Like a wise man once said.....walk a mile in my shoes,...Additionally, my belief is the Geneva Convention still pertains to uniformed combatants on the field of battle.

[DzM]

Sorry I'm not as good a man as you are. I personally can not treat those linked to roadside bombs, someone who shoots at troops and hides in homes with women and children, someone who decapitates my brother while wearing a hood on the internet with decorum.....which if you follow the time line happened far prior to our school boy pranks that honestly pale in comparison. I'm not looking to sink to the lowest common denominator but I can't blame anyone who does after what they've seen. Like a wise man once said.....walk a mile in my shoes,...Additionally, my belief is the Geneva Convention still pertains to uniformed combatants on the field of battle.

In other words "those guys are brutal thugs so we should have no problem with being brutal thugs ourselves. We should hold ourselves to the standard they set."