Pogues and Politics

[Noonan McKane]

I'm not at all sure that the UK (at least, some parts of it) ever did, or will, 'receive' Irish immigrants. For sure, the part of it which is geographically closest to Ireland, West Scotland where I live never really has.

Would I be overstepping the mark to guess you're from Ayrshire? *Graham Love shudders at the memory of a trip to Larkhall*

I think most Irish immigrants to SW Scotland went to the largest population centre, so to Glasgow. Dundee & Edinburgh also had Irish immigration to some extant though my home town Aberdeen never had [within recent years most immigration here has been from the US, Nigeria and Norway due to the oil].

Funnily enough, people displaying the Union Flag aren't too popular round here, though that is nothing to do with Irish immigration

....and everything to do with the hated Glasgow Rangers, yes?
You're not overstepping the mark by guessing that, Graham. I am indeed from the beautiful county of auld Ayr. Burns country.

You guys have got oil?!?! Can I have some? I love oil, me.

Only jokin' ye, pal. Merry Xmas & a guid new year.

[graham love]

Partly to do with the bluenoses, also to do with the BNP candidate that set up camp a few blocks over from here.

Happy 2008 to yersel'

[Lemmy]

It was a good paper the only gripe I have is you dismiss SLF as having no political output when they are overtly political and nationalist throughout their whole run.

Hi... first, thanks for taking the trouble to plow through the article, and I appreciate the comments. I didn't mean to be dismissive of SLF, more sorta just pumping up the Pogues. The conference where I gave the paper was a political science affair and I was a bit sensitive to a possible critique that I was wasting their time, so I tried to add some stuff at the beginning to show the band merited study. On the other hand, check out the citation I have for that reference, that article took the Northern Irish punk movement to task pretty harshly for not being "punky" enough in their political edge. That is, the music was edgy, but the politics weren't. Here's the reference: Rolston, Bill. 2001. “‘This is Not a Rebel Song’: The Irish Conflict and Popular Music.” Race
& Class 42(3):49-67. It's a good article, mostly comparing the (genuine) Marley concert brokering peace between rival parties in JA in the midst of a violent election campaign, and the staged U2 Belfast show bringing together some of the players in the Troubles following the Good Friday accords (I think).

I think the main reason that SLF and other Belfast bands didn't take real hard, loud stances on the IRA is because they had to live in the middle of that shit. You had British forces on one side, and IRA thugs on the other. It's much easier to be a strong IRA supporter if you live in, say, Dublin, or anywhere else besides Belfast, because you don't have to deal directly with the thuggery.

[soulfinger]

http://faculty.njcu.edu/fmoran/nepsa2007.pdf

I don't know if this has been discussed previously...but I enjoyed it.

[DzM]

Yeah, Fran came by here a while ago and mentioned this:

viewtopic.php?p=124265#p124265

[soulfinger]

Thanks. I clearly missed it first time round .

[DzM]

Thanks. I clearly missed it first time round .

Ain't nuthin' to be embarrassed about. That's why we have a really long retention on most of the fora here. If it was interesting once, it'll probably be interesting again.

[Fr. McGreer]

Not a bad read, but page 16 is pushing it a bit far saying Star Of The County Down was chosen as a cover because of the geographical references to towns in the North. More likely it was Andrew's party piece that he loved singing....

[in_the_morning]

That's a very interesting article. I never thought that much about the Pogues and Nationalism, I just enjoyed the music. I actually don't know all those Irish heroes or political figures since I'm not Irish and only 18. But I suppose it's a very interesting and important issue, so I have to buy some literature when there's money in my pocket again. The article is a bit exaggerated, I think. Though nationalism or references to political stuff might be important for the Pogues, in the end it's the music that I like really.

[territa]

What's happened to the book? Is it still a work in progress? It would be a shame if it has been scrapped.

[dsweeney]

It was a good paper the only gripe I have is you dismiss SLF as having no political output when they are overtly political and nationalist throughout their whole run.

Sorry but SLF weren't Nationalist. They were speaking from a young person's perspective about how shit the Northern State was to live in. When they sang about an " Alternative Ulster " it wasn't in a Republican sense. It was against the system and the brutality of the RUC. " Alter your native land " was more about fighting the system than a Republican cry for a United Ireland. They were most certainly to the "left" though. " White noise " was about people in the North supporting the National Front and British Movement racist parties, pointing out that in the eyes of those people we are all " green wogs " and that Paddy " ain't no Brit ".

[Cal]

I'm not at all sure that the UK (at least, some parts of it) ever did, or will, 'receive' Irish immigrants. For sure, the part of it which is geographically closest to Ireland, West Scotland where I live never really has. Nowhere is the flag of the Union waved more fiercely. Around here "the Irish" are still regarded as enemies of the state. A chronic irony as prior to the 'union of the crowns' of Scotland and England in 1707 Scotland was just as angry with it's neighbour as Ireland and France were, and fought constantly against it's imperialism. Every time a Scottish army fought against an English one, there would be roughly equal amounts of Irish 'sympathisers' on both sides.
Recently, the 'troubles' (actually a civil war, fought in Ireland, by Irish people, at a convenient distance from Great Britain, which cared less and less about the outcome initially, and not at all by the end) were imbued with much of their energy and enthusiasm (not to mention a huge percentage of the weapons and people willing to use them) by the west of Scotland. Certain areas of the city of Glasgow and certain towns in Lanarkshire were, and still are, decorated and populated in such a way as to make them indistinguishable from Belfast during the evictions. There are streets in Larkhall, Airdrie and Coatbridge where it is perpetually 1969.........
Back in August, I was shocked and saddened to see Johnny 'mad dog' Adair stroll past me in my local Homebase. He's 'retired' just down the coast from me, apparently. The T shirt he wore was bearing a sickeningly familiar crest which suggested he may only be in semi-retirement. Of course it's better that folk with names like O' Neil or Kelly or Brennan can walk freely abroad the streets of Belfast now, but there are schemes in Glasgow which they would be ill advised to even go near.
Yes, even yet.

This is way over the top. Seems you are grossly exaggerating the state of the West Coast in order to sound dramatic and interesting. 99% of the bigotry here is about a football rivalry. I'm not saying hatred and violence doesn't exist, just your assertion that Irish are regarded as "enemies of the state" is ridiculous.

There's no need to talk Ayrshire down like this. It's a beautiful part of the world - albeit splashed with a bit of council scheme depression. And yes, I'm from Kilmarnock.

[dsweeney]

I have to object at the description of " the troubles " as a civil war, fought in Ireland, by Irish people. The situation in the North was a result of the partition of the island of Ireland by a British government. The six county statelet was created as a " protestant state for a protestant people " and was regarded by the British establishment as a colony. The British army was viewed by many as an army of occupation and last vestiges of British rule in Ireland.
I'm reminded of a story Nell Mcafferty told on the " Late late show " many years ago. She told of how her mother had told her that one morning in 1920 they woke up and were told they were now British. This was the partitioning of Ireland by " The government of Ireland " Act,1920.