What makes a song a "paddy" song?

[IrishRover]

there is no opposition? Good!

talkoin' of manageroial "essence 'n' attoitude", oid say we just woitnessed hoistoiroical moiment that one has foinally expressed oit oin just one sentence - or was oit selfquestion 'n' selfanswer as oit usually ois

anyway, oi bet me hat that oid have a woinnoin' scroipt to oiffer to Southpark creators.. a loittle manager jumps outta every coirner woith a sladgehammer & asks everyone a question: "OIs there an OIppoisoition here?", "We doin't take koindly to OI rebel types around here.."

[Phoist]

That statement didnt make any sense even without the 'oi's

[Irishbookish]

IrishRover might be going on to live in Mexico...

Talkeen' of managereeal "essence 'n' atteetude", eed say we just weetnessed heesteereecal meement that one has feenally expressed eet een just one sentence - or was eet selfquestion 'n' selfanswer as eet usually ees anyway, ee bet me hat that eed have a weenneen' screept to eeffer to Southpark creators.. a leettle manager jumps outta every ceerner weeth a sleedgehammer & asks everyone a question: "EEs there an EEppeeseetion here?", "We deen't take keendly to rebeel types around heere.."

Sorry OIrish...

[Pyro]

That statement didnt make any sense even without the 'oi's

That was cruel. But so fucking true

[PADDYgoesDUTCH]

Hey guys, let's prove Philip wrong (don't take it personally, Philip!) and let us show that it is possible to have a sensible exchange of points of view on what is the essence of Irish music

If music lovers that share a feeling for a certain genre can't manage to do so about their favourite music, where is the world going?

I fear that so far Philip is watching this thread thinking: "Man, am I glad I didn't get involved too deep"

So let me restate my initial question: "what is at the heart of Irish music?".
And let me rephrase it to hopefully make it more fruitful. Imagine a bunch of musicians with fiddle, accordion, guitars, some percussion and some singing, what is it that makes the one tune Klezmer and the other Irish?
I like both by the way, so no derogarative terms about either please, just thoughtful remarks about what sets them apart within seconds of hearing a tune, despite highly similar instrumentation (apart from flute versus clarinet and other minor differences)

let me hear some sense, or else I opt out like, I fear, Philip did


thanks in advance

[Pyro]

Hm, I agree that many threads heading towards Oi's show something, but could be done in one thread.

I really don´t know...I think that certain part is in scales used - another one in typical distance of notes (I thnk that "cutting" combinations like E-B in Drowsy Maggie, or Morisson´s jig, or e-A in Tenpenny jig are pretty typical).But I once tried to do "math version" - using only such typical notes...it didn´t work. Oirish may be strange, at times - but I believe there´s something on his term of "essence".

In many songs, drink is involved, but it´s involved in russian songs too, and it´s completely different style of drinking.

[Zuzana]

Methinks you'll find it somewhere in the acrid smell of peat burning in the grate of a cosy home....

... a cosy home where the mum has just locked the screaming kids in the cellar and incapacitated the hard-drinking husband with one mighty blow with a bottle, to be able to finally sit down in a swinging chair next to the fireplace and read a romantic novel.

Maybe further along the rolling hills, houses dotted about the paddocks, low stonewalled farms, about the horses, sheep, cattle. ...

... sheep, cattle, lowing and bleating mournfully as if they knew they’ll soon enough turn into fatty hamburgers, steaks and cutlets.

Fleeting shadows cross your path or flirting in the periphery of your vision which spark the imagination and fire the blood to provide a warmth that has nothing to do with the sun....

... that has nothing to do with the sun, more likely with the fever caught by wandering insufficiently dressed over the moors last night, after having to flee your true love’s bedroom upon the unexpected arrival of her husband.

In whispers of the fey, or faeries, lore and where magick seems entirely possible, so gives you pause if you enter a cave and smell the ancient, dank earth, look across the countryside from the battlements of a castle after climbing the winding, stone staircase....

.... climbing the winding, stone staircase, panting heavily as the staircase was long and your lungs are not as strong as they used to be in the days of youth (blame all the cigarettes) only to bump into a locked door with the sign "sorry, the lookout tower is closed today".

Maybe as you sit quietly by a running stream in a wooded area watching fey lights dance about your head, or sit in solitude in a field with the sheep watching the mist roll over the hills and feel the chill seep under your skin...

... under your skin knowing that you’ll catch a cold once again and be reduced to shivering in the bed... and not having to go to work, thus having plenty of time for writing paddy songs.

Yes. You are perfectly right. It IS inspiring.

[Irishbookish]

...let us show that it is possible to have a sensible exchange of points of view on what is the essence of Irish music. If music lovers that share a feeling for a certain genre can't manage to do so about their favourite music, where is the world going?

Well, I offered what I thought was sensible, and you said:

...meself thinks your pastoral picture is somewhat at odds with the less peacefull spirit of rebel songs..

You surely already understand that writing songs isn't just about the physical - it has a whole extranneous set of factors that influence it, and so instead of picking replies to pieces just take on board every different or unique concept that every person presents (except those hooligans who've run amok and not including me because my halo is shining brightly...) and gather it all in, and in the end, you'll have a better answer to your question than in just one single reply. I found this a while ago, and you might also find it fairly useful. http://www.alan-ng.net/irish/learning/
PS everybody runs amok on most of the threads - they did it to me, but that's part of the spirit.

[MacRua]

Zuzana, with a stroke on a key or two you turned that terrible marchpane Tir na nOg back into reality. That IS a magic

Imagine a bunch of musicians with fiddle, accordion, guitars, some percussion and some singing, what is it that makes the one tune Klezmer and the other Irish?
I like both by the way, so no derogarative terms about either please, just thoughtful remarks about what sets them apart within seconds of hearing a tune, despite highly similar instrumentation (apart from flute versus clarinet and other minor differences)

What sets apart reels and freylekhs or niguns? Meter and duration patterns, nah? Or you mean the difference in performance of the same tune, let' say polka. What will differ polka performed by klezmer band from polka performed by "paddy" band? Instrumentation aside (i.e. both equipped with the same set of instruments)? Traditional ornamentation maybe... The way of performance (show itself )

BTW even the same set of instruments these two bands will use differently, I believe..

[PADDYgoesDUTCH]

...let us show that it is possible to have a sensible exchange of points of view on what is the essence of Irish music. If music lovers that share a feeling for a certain genre can't manage to do so about their favourite music, where is the world going?

Well, I offered what I thought was sensible, and you said:

...meself thinks your pastoral picture is somewhat at odds with the less peacefull spirit of rebel songs..

..

Well, sure, part of the songs are about the romanticization of rural life ! So yeah, that may be an element of Paddy songs. I do not deny that.
But I think it is neither unique for, nor defining of, Paddy songs.

For to my mind, that cannot be a defining characteristic of Irish Music as such, since (and my sentence continued longer than you quoted me), such romanticization or ruralism can hardly be said to define "... the urban spirit of the likes of The Go Set, Biblecode Sundays, Tossers, Mr Irish Bastard, Sharky Doyles, Circle J, Neck, Wakes, Greenland Whalefishers, Killigans, Mahones, ... and even Pogues".

The Sharky Doyles, for instance, sing a nice song about how proud they are of being from a certain working class neighbourhood in Chicago. The song, although very loud, sounds very Paddy to me, but it surely does not fit your description. So what then makes that song Paddy ??


Frankly, I thought that in pointing this out (in opposition, if you wish), I was merely challenging you ..

[Irishbookish]

Well, sure, part of the songs are about the romanticization of rural life! So yeah, that may be an element of Paddy songs. I do not deny that. But I think it is neither unique for, nor defining of, Paddy songs.

I'm only going to say this once more: What I said was - writing songs isn't just about the physical - it has a whole extranneous set of factors that influence it. You could just accept each unique concept that a person gives with good grace. I don't mean not to discuss things, but I don't see the need to dissect each reply?!

...and my sentence continued longer than you quoted me..

That's because I didn't need the entire diatribe to emphasise my point. You picked bits from my quote also. You simply will never define or dissect a music in the way that you're after doing. You'll be here forever arguing and missing the point. My concept was merely a methodology promoting the talent which should already be present. In future I'll be leaving it all up to the 'experts' and find myself busy elsewhere.