What makes a song a "paddy" song?

[Noel Kenny]

...even Shane has written songs that...I wouldn't classify as Paddy songs

Yeah sure, several tracks on The Snake for instance

And from what I read up about him and The Pogues, he at one stage wanted to have a go at techno. Had he had his way, would you have still called that Paddy just because it was penned by good old Shane ??

Rainy Night in Soho could have been written about any nationality.

[The Duke of Ingmar]

If I remember correctly the Pogues were annoyed at their American record company for sticking a shamrock on every record they made, no matter what music was on it.

[Irishbookish]

WHAT MAKES A SONG A PADDY SONG...?

Something very elusive...
Methinks you'll find it somewhere in the acrid smell of peat burning in the grate of a cosy home. Maybe further along the rolling hills, houses dotted about the paddocks, low stonewalled farms, about the horses, sheep, cattle. In memories - sparked by a scene, smell, sound, taste or touch and given by God. Fleeting shadows cross your path or flirting in the periphery of your vision which spark the imagination and fire the blood to provide a warmth that has nothing to do with the sun.
You'll find it in your imagination - that place where dreams are made, and where stories dwell and history lives in books and musings. In whispers of the fey, or faeries, lore and where magick seems entirely possible, so gives you pause if you enter a cave and smell the ancient, dank earth, look across the countryside from the battlements of a castle after climbing the winding, stone staircase. Maybe as you sit quietly by a running stream in a wooded area watching fey lights dance about your head, or sit in solitude in a field with the sheep watching the mist roll over the hills and feel the chill seep under your skin.

Breathe it, see it, live it - it’s there inside you - it has been there all the time.
You just need the courage to look inside to find and use it. The rest will take care of itself.

[PADDYgoesDUTCH]

WHAT MAKES A SONG A PADDY SONG...?

Something very elusive...

very nicely written, but meself thinks me is more of the analytical breed, at times at least

meself also thinks you refer either to sources of inspiration for that music or to images brought to mind by that music, but not to any characteristic of that music itself

and meself thinks your pastoral picture is somewhat at odds with the less peacefull spirit of rebel songs, as well as with the urban spirit of the likes of The Go Set, Biblecode Sundays, Tossers, Mr Irish Bastard, Sharky Doyles, Circle J, Neck, Wakes, Greenland Whalefishers, Killigans, Mahones, ... and even Pogues

[IrishRover]

oi was waoition' ye to mention oit.. Snake examples..
stuff ois.. when ye scratch the surface of such songs that moight be moisunderstood as non-Paddy songs, essence ois they really are Paddy's no matter oif the musoic that foilloiws aoin't exactly tradoitionally OIroish tuned.. that was oi refferoin' to oin me foirst post; oi wouldn't say a song ois a Paddy one just because soime people woith OIroish oinstruments gathered together and they're rapoing the oinstruments oin oirder to gaoin as much of "the OIroish sound" as possoible

for me Voictoiroia, Church Of The Holy Spooik, That Woiman's Got Me Droinkoin' and many oithers are Paddy songs due to oits Paddy cointent(woider ointerpretation) & the Paddy authoir - woith everythoing Shaneo represents! judgement of the whole song cannot be based just on foilloiwoin' tune; then half of Pogues and Shaneo's doiscoigraphy could be wroingly goiven an etoiquette of not beeoin' Paddy musoic; oi hope Philiip's gonna join thois doiscussion, to say moire of the woider cointext;

so, all oin all, to say oit oin one sentence; froim me point of voiew: OIt doesn't mean that a song must be a Paddy one just because oit has been goiven' who knoiws many tunes and choirds coinsoidered to be "Paddy default" & oipposoite goes as well, oit doesn't mean that song aoin't a Paddy one just because oits not based on tradoitional OIrish tunes and choirds but has rock, hard rock, metal or oither background

[philipchevron]

oi was waoition' ye to mention oit.. Snake examples..
stuff ois.. when ye scratch the surface of such songs that moight be moisunderstood as non-Paddy songs, essence ois they really are Paddy's no matter oif the musoic that foilloiws aoin't exactly tradoitionally OIroish tuned.. that was oi refferoin' to oin me foirst post; oi wouldn't say a song ois a Paddy one just because soime people woith OIroish oinstruments gathered together and they're rapoing the oinstruments oin oirder to gaoin as much of "the OIroish sound" as possoible

for me Voictoiroia, Church Of The Holy Spooik, That Woiman's Got Me Droinkoin' and many oithers are Paddy songs due to oits Paddy cointent(woider ointerpretation) & the Paddy authoir - woith everythoing Shaneo represents! judgement of the whole song cannot be based just on foilloiwoin' tune; then half of Pogues and Shaneo's doiscoigraphy could be wroingly goiven an etoiquette of not beeoin' Paddy musoic; oi hope Philiip's gonna join thois doiscussion, to say moire of the woider cointext;

so, all oin all, to say oit oin one sentence; froim me point of voiew: OIt doesn't mean that a song must be a Paddy one just because oit has been goiven' who knoiws many tunes and choirds coinsoidered to be "Paddy default" & oipposoite goes as well, oit doesn't mean that song aoin't a Paddy one just because oits not based on tradoitional OIrish tunes and choirds but has rock, hard rock, metal or oither background

Sorry Oirish, I won't be joining this particular discussion, though I have enjoyed reading your - and others' - contribution to it. I feel I disqualify myself from the debate somehow. If being born Irish and writing songs all your life many of which are even ABOUT being Irish, qualifies your work to be described as "Paddy", then I'm your man. But the same could also be said of a number of other writers and performers who (rightly) do not reach your exacting conditions, I feel certain. And Eugene O'Neill who not even the Irish have truly had the good grace to claim as "one of our own", though he indisputably aspired to be, is certainly not in the hallowed pantheon of "Paddy" playwrights either.

No, my friend, I fear that the judgment of what is and what is not to be "Paddy" art is to be left in the hands of fools and blackguards rather than in the hands of those who actually made the art in the first place.

[PADDYgoesDUTCH]

I fear that the judgment of what is and what is not to be "Paddy" art is to be left in the hands of fools and blackguards rather than in the hands of those who actually made the art in the first place.

I respect your point of view Philip, and I suspect you must have come across this discussion so often that you've had your fill.

Please allow me to add that I wasn't interested in being judgemental about what is and what is not Paddy or Irish about a tune. That sort of discussion about inclusion (and reversely exclusion) never has helped mankind in any sense, as history regrettably shows, in Ireland, on the Balkan and around the globe.

My quest came from a different angle. The first two Paddy bands I learnt about (I already confessed to being a late conversion) are Pogues and Flogging Molly. Music from both bands instantaniously makes 'my nose curl' (as the Dutch saying goes). My quest simply was: what is it about this music that makes it have this feel? What is at the heart of an Irish tune? I can live with not getting an answer. Thanks.

[philipchevron]

I fear that the judgment of what is and what is not to be "Paddy" art is to be left in the hands of fools and blackguards rather than in the hands of those who actually made the art in the first place.

I respect your point of view Philip, and I suspect you must have come across this discussion so often that you've had your fill.

Please allow me to add that I wasn't interested in being judgemental about what is and what is not Paddy or Irish about a tune. That sort of discussion about inclusion (and reversely exclusion) never has helped mankind in any sense, as history regrettably shows, in Ireland, on the Balkan and around the globe.

My quest came from a different angle. The first two Paddy bands I learnt about (I already confessed to being a late conversion) are Pogues and Flogging Molly. Music from both bands instantaniously makes 'my nose curl' (as the Dutch saying goes). My quest simply was: what is it about this music that makes it have this feel? What is at the heart of an Irish tune? I can live with not getting an answer. Thanks.

Ah but that's simple. That's the fundamentals themselves - the Irish tunes, the jigs and reels in 9/8 and 6/8 time. When they began in 1970, Horslips persistently and persuasively argued that as Irish music was a major component of country music which was in turn a major component of Rock n Roll, Irish music had at least as much claim on being the roots of Rock n Roll as The Blues do. And not just for entirely technical musical reasons either - Blues was both expression and exorcising of the demons the world had sent to torment us, and the same is true of Irish music. Like Blues, Irish music is irresistible and sexy. And like Blues, you get into trouble the moment you leave the "purists" to mind the store on their own.

[SonOfErin]

I think it's kinda similar to how some describe pornography. "I can't quite define it, but I'll know it when I see it"

[IrishRover]

Philip, oi hope oi aoin't moisunderstood oin ways of "Paddy defoinoition" cause me voiews are better than knoiwn oin that area; thats why oi've put "not a paper Paddy" phrase.. oi aoin't puttoin' border condoitions related to boirthly status, further moire oid be the last one to do that, as oi do consoider me oiwn woirk as Paddy one & many poseurs deny me oiwn roights of such; oi aoin't sayoin' judgemental majoiroity decoides whats true and what aoin't, but sad fact ois that best of arts stoill come oin subculture category.. oif ye ask me boith Shaneo's solo and whole of Pogues' doiscography are underestoimated oin gloibal terms; those who are no.1 should be goiven roightly deserved place; oif smn creates Paddy musoic, then oit should be qualoifoied as such and those who aren't.. well the truth should be told as well

thois thread ois moire than ointerestoing.. not due to some soirt of creationg "Thois ois Paddy" / "Thois aoin't Paddy" stoickers but oin ways to hear the voiews and get closer to whats really essence & attoitude oin Paddy musoic; froim me point of voiew we have too many wroingly promoted to be "Paddy musoic" artoists; when oi hear the phrase "U2, the greatest OIroish band of all toimes..", oi mean, oi turn green as well as when oi hear that every soingle bunch that took oinstruments and pokes woith OIroish tunes ois oinstantly goiven "OIroish musoic" etoiquette; thats maoinly goiven by those who see OIroish musoic as nothoin' more but cheap throill entertaoinment and nothoing deeper; besoides droinkoin' beer and jumpoin' to the rhytm, oi moire value the very coire phoiloisoiphoies, essence, attoitude.. yup, tois all moixed woith em' joigs 'n' reels and oit broings up great energy & oi agree oirresoistoible foir those woith opened heart

Philip, when oi asked ye to join the doiscussion, oi was havoin' oin moind yer speech froim documentary where ye spoke of the woider cointext surroindoing buoildoin' up the Pogues; oif oi recall well, tois' the part where ye mention' that foir the Pogues to become an outstandoin' OIroish band, oit had to be done, paradoixally, but away froim OIreland, oin doiaspora; agoin oif oi recall ok, oin that part oinfluences froim oither types of musoic are mentioned but oit stoill remaoins Paddy musoic; all that oi thoink goives to thois thread addoitional arguments.. what PaddyGoesDutch and meself are talkoin' about..

[Irishbookish]

...your pastoral picture is somewhat at odds with the less peacefull spirit of rebel songs...

Hmm...those things aren't meant to be included in the songs, but to inspire what should already be inside your heart and mind. I write and sing my own material and whilst never comparing my own work to that of the famous, am inspired by self and others. Amongst these songs are a few rebel-type songs which extraordinarily were inspired by a walk in the common, and there's nothing peaceful about some of these songs.

People trying to help by answering a question with their opinion aren't alway after an analytical discussion, just after giving a bloke a hand across a busy road. I've put my two penn'orth in anyway, so good luck now

[MacRua]

Something very elusive...
Methinks you'll find it somewhere in the acrid smell of peat burning in the grate of a cosy home. Maybe further along the rolling hills, houses dotted about the paddocks, low stonewalled farms, about the horses, sheep, cattle. In memories - sparked by a scene, smell, sound, taste or touch and given by God. Fleeting shadows cross your path or flirting in the periphery of your vision which spark the imagination and fire the blood to provide a warmth that has nothing to do with the sun.
You'll find it in your imagination - that place where dreams are made, and where stories dwell and history lives in books and musings. In whispers of the fey, or faeries, lore and where magick seems entirely possible, so gives you pause if you enter a cave and smell the ancient, dank earth, look across the countryside from the battlements of a castle after climbing the winding, stone staircase. Maybe as you sit quietly by a running stream in a wooded area watching fey lights dance about your head, or sit in solitude in a field with the sheep watching the mist roll over the hills and feel the chill seep under your skin.

Breathe it, see it, live it - it’s there inside you - it has been there all the time.
You just need the courage to look inside to find and use it. The rest will take care of itself.

Gojko has brainwashed you or what?
That discription is on the verge of reverdance and saccharin "celtic" scene.. What it misses is cupla leprechauns with crocks full of stuff and red-haired busty fillies riding rainbow...

[Irishbookish]

Gojko has brainwashed you or what?
That discription...

dEscription - it has an 'e'

is on the verge of reverdance

rIverdance - it has an 'i'(this is sounding all very Oirish to me - I wonder who's been brainwashed here and by whom??

and saccharin "celtic" scene.. What it misses is cupla leprechauns with crocks full of stuff and red-haired busty fillies riding rainbow...

what's this crock of shyte?..I was describing where I live, you great bongovan, not where you live.

[Pyro]

Something very elusive...
Methinks you'll find it somewhere in the acrid smell of peat burning in the grate of a cosy home. Maybe further along the rolling hills, houses dotted about the paddocks, low stonewalled farms, about the horses, sheep, cattle. In memories - sparked by a scene, smell, sound, taste or touch and given by God. Fleeting shadows cross your path or flirting in the periphery of your vision which spark the imagination and fire the blood to provide a warmth that has nothing to do with the sun.
You'll find it in your imagination - that place where dreams are made, and where stories dwell and history lives in books and musings. In whispers of the fey, or faeries, lore and where magick seems entirely possible, so gives you pause if you enter a cave and smell the ancient, dank earth, look across the countryside from the battlements of a castle after climbing the winding, stone staircase. Maybe as you sit quietly by a running stream in a wooded area watching fey lights dance about your head, or sit in solitude in a field with the sheep watching the mist roll over the hills and feel the chill seep under your skin.

Breathe it, see it, live it - it’s there inside you - it has been there all the time.
You just need the courage to look inside to find and use it. The rest will take care of itself.

Gojko has brainwashed you or what?
That discription is on the verge of reverdance and saccharin "celtic" scene.. What it misses is cupla leprechauns with crocks full of stuff and red-haired busty fillies riding rainbow...

Ah, you poiseur, you´ve got no spoiroit and oissence

[MacRua]

Gojko has brainwashed you or what?
That discription...

dEscription - it has an 'e'

is on the verge of reverdance

rIverdance - it has an 'i'(this is sounding all very Oirish to me - I wonder who's been brainwashed here and by whom??

and saccharin "celtic" scene.. What it misses is cupla leprechauns with crocks full of stuff and red-haired busty fillies riding rainbow...

what's this crock of shyte?..I was describing where I live, you great bongovan, not where you live.

My poor spelling/typing abilities aside, there is no opposition? Good!