Pogues and Politics

[Phoist]

Its in other songs as well but talking specifically about 'White Noise' it does talk about the general repressive nature of British society but to say 'green WOGs, green WOGs we aint no brits' is a nationalist statement sliced any way. And Irish nationalism has taken many forms over the years it is just the extra-parlimentary republicans are the ones that grab headlines both before and after partition there have been large groups dedicated to nonviolent expression of irish nationality both within a British context and an independent state context.

[Sandyfromvancouver]

And on the gaelic... I've been over in Eire a couple of times, and have watched RTE and the gaelic shows (usually dreadful soap operas and tacky game shows it seemed to me), but out in the "real world" I didn't hear much. At the touristy spots the guide would give a line or two and then go right into English. The only spot I heard much was out in Killarney and on the Aran Islands. I applaud the effort, but it's a losing battle, I fear. [/font][/i]

Gaelic's getting eroded everywhere. It was the first language of my (Highland Scots descended) great-grandparents in Cape Breton (Nova Scotia Canada), but my grandmother couldn't speak it. And again there are attempts to revive it, but....

[graham love]

Its in other songs as well but talking specifically about 'White Noise' it does talk about the general repressive nature of British society but to say 'green WOGs, green WOGs we aint no brits' is a nationalist statement sliced any way. And Irish nationalism has taken many forms over the years it is just the extra-parlimentary republicans are the ones that grab headlines both before and after partition there have been large groups dedicated to nonviolent expression of irish nationality both within a British context and an independent state context.

Makes sense, i'm with you on that.

My fault for using too narrow a definition of nationalism

[Sandyfromvancouver]

Greetings all. I've been awol for awhile here, but wanted to let folks know that I'm working on transforming the poguetry.com website into a book length treatment examining the Pogues and resurgent Irish nationalism. The opening stab at that move is available online at: http://faculty.njcu.edu/fmoran/nepsa2007.pdf
I'd appreciate any comment/feedback; particularly in the tone/tenor. The book will expand on the different sections in the paper. Have a happy and a merry.

Thanks!
Fran
http://www.poguetry.com

Your paper is interesting. Nationalism is a complex question.

You mention that the Pogues didn't have quite the commercial success in the US as in Britain.

The reasons might be: the ethnically heterogenous, mixed, "hapa" nature of the new world. Many people might be partly Irish, also of other ethnic descent as well. Yet they may primarily identify as American rather than Irish or whatever else because of the melting pot aspect of US society.

A group that was identified as Irish like the Pogues may have lacked a broader audience because people didn't look beyond the Pogues' supposed "Irishness".

As well the issues of social justice their music addressed are couched in different language, perhaps. While one can legitimately say racism is racism, the targets, particularly in the 80's, were ethnically different in Britain (ie South Asian) and in the US, (black and Hispanic).

Could go on, but this is a forum.

[Doktor Avalanche]

Could go on, but this is a forum.

Hasn't stopped anyone before.

[graham love]

You mention that the Pogues didn't have quite the commercial success in the US as in Britain.

The reasons might be: the ethnically heterogenous, mixed, "hapa" nature of the new world. Many people might be partly Irish, also of other ethnic descent as well. Yet they may primarily identify as American rather than Irish or whatever else because of the melting pot aspect of US society.

But there are probably a fair few Pogues fans without any Irish connection in the U.K.

And I believe The Pogues had(ve) a huge following in Germany and Japan, two countries not noted for receiving Irish immigrants in the way that USA and UK did

[PADDYgoesDUTCH]

[/quote]But there are probably a fair few Pogues fans without any Irish connection in the U.K.
[/quote]

and outside, like me for instance,

really loved the paper opening this thread,
thanks

i'll fire off a mail with some comments

[Sandyfromvancouver]

But there are probably a fair few Pogues fans without any Irish connection in the U.K.

And I believe The Pogues had(ve) a huge following in Germany and Japan, two countries not noted for receiving Irish immigrants in the way that USA and UK did

Good point. Well, maybe things will change.

[Noonan McKane]

I'm not at all sure that the UK (at least, some parts of it) ever did, or will, 'receive' Irish immigrants. For sure, the part of it which is geographically closest to Ireland, West Scotland where I live never really has. Nowhere is the flag of the Union waved more fiercely. Around here "the Irish" are still regarded as enemies of the state. A chronic irony as prior to the 'union of the crowns' of Scotland and England in 1707 Scotland was just as angry with it's neighbour as Ireland and France were, and fought constantly against it's imperialism. Every time a Scottish army fought against an English one, there would be roughly equal amounts of Irish 'sympathisers' on both sides.
Recently, the 'troubles' (actually a civil war, fought in Ireland, by Irish people, at a convenient distance from Great Britain, which cared less and less about the outcome initially, and not at all by the end) were imbued with much of their energy and enthusiasm (not to mention a huge percentage of the weapons and people willing to use them) by the west of Scotland. Certain areas of the city of Glasgow and certain towns in Lanarkshire were, and still are, decorated and populated in such a way as to make them indistinguishable from Belfast during the evictions. There are streets in Larkhall, Airdrie and Coatbridge where it is perpetually 1969.........
Back in August, I was shocked and saddened to see Johnny 'mad dog' Adair stroll past me in my local Homebase. He's 'retired' just down the coast from me, apparently. The T shirt he wore was bearing a sickeningly familiar crest which suggested he may only be in semi-retirement. Of course it's better that folk with names like O' Neil or Kelly or Brennan can walk freely abroad the streets of Belfast now, but there are schemes in Glasgow which they would be ill advised to even go near.
Yes, even yet.

[Sandyfromvancouver]

I'm not at all sure that the UK (at least, some parts of it) ever did, or will, 'receive' Irish immigrants. For sure, the part of it which is geographically closest to Ireland, West Scotland where I live never really has. Nowhere is the flag of the Union waved more fiercely. Around here "the Irish" are still regarded as enemies of the state. A chronic irony as prior to the 'union of the crowns' of Scotland and England in 1707 Scotland was just as angry with it's neighbour as Ireland and France were, and fought constantly against it's imperialism. Every time a Scottish army fought against an English one, there would be roughly equal amounts of Irish 'sympathisers' on both sides.
Recently, the 'troubles' (actually a civil war, fought in Ireland, by Irish people, at a convenient distance from Great Britain, which cared less and less about the outcome initially, and not at all by the end) were imbued with much of their energy and enthusiasm (not to mention a huge percentage of the weapons and people willing to use them) by the west of Scotland. Certain areas of the city of Glasgow and certain towns in Lanarkshire were, and still are, decorated and populated in such a way as to make them indistinguishable from Belfast during the evictions. There are streets in Larkhall, Airdrie and Coatbridge where it is perpetually 1969.........
Back in August, I was shocked and saddened to see Johnny 'mad dog' Adair stroll past me in my local Homebase. He's 'retired' just down the coast from me, apparently. The T shirt he wore was bearing a sickeningly familiar crest which suggested he may only be in semi-retirement. Of course it's better that folk with names like O' Neil or Kelly or Brennan can walk freely abroad the streets of Belfast now, but there are schemes in Glasgow which they would be ill advised to even go near.
Yes, even yet.

Noonan, my speculations were hastily done. Sorry.

If it's any comfort, this cheek by jowl experience happens in many places. I once taught English to two Salvadoran men, refugee claimants. The young was was making good progress, and I was pretty pleased with him.

The older man was not doing very well. He took me aside one day and showed me bullet scars in his back. He told me the Death Squads had come to his village and shot at all the men. He'd gotten wounded in the back as he was running away.

He also told me the young guy had been a member of the death squads.

It's a tangled web. Some of my ancestors came to Canada to get away from the Highland Clearances. Yet I've met some of the cousins and it was a big deal for them who was protestant and who was catholic. Bleh. And one of my New England great-grandmothers was Irish, but my Boston grandfather (her son) despised Irish people, go figure.

Scary having people who incite hatred, no matter what. Best of luck to you.

[Noonan McKane]

And to you, Sandy. All the best for the coming year.

[graham love]

I'm not at all sure that the UK (at least, some parts of it) ever did, or will, 'receive' Irish immigrants. For sure, the part of it which is geographically closest to Ireland, West Scotland where I live never really has.

Would I be overstepping the mark to guess you're from Ayrshire? *Graham Love shudders at the memory of a trip to Larkhall*

I think most Irish immigrants to SW Scotland went to the largest population centre, so to Glasgow. Dundee & Edinburgh also had Irish immigration to some extant though my home town Aberdeen never had [within recent years most immigration here has been from the US, Nigeria and Norway due to the oil].

Funnily enough, people displaying the Union Flag aren't too popular round here, though that is nothing to do with Irish immigration

[Niall]

i can speak on this subject as an Irish immigrant iliving and working in manchester f you wanna pm me for more detail feel free to do so

[PADDYgoesDUTCH]

i can speak on this subject as an Irish immigrant iliving and working in manchester f you wanna pm me for more detail feel free to do so

or talk about it over a pint in The Hatfield in Belfast this Saturday??
cu mate

[Sandyfromvancouver]

Sandy. . . All the best for the coming year.

Have a great New Year!!