[Still] The President of these here United States of America

[NewJerseyRich]

No. Some of us have moved on from the lurid Birther nonsense. Personally, I have been aware of the issues surrounding the copy of the b/c for quite some time. It's a matter of legal procedure which the lawyers never seriously expected they would have to address in practice - this was before we all knew the full extent of the insanity of Birtherism and how their appetite for conspiracy knew no end. But if Neo-Nazi websites are only picking up on it now, they can hardly blame the rest of us for not waiting for them to catch up.

But enough about that. Here's the thing, Rich. Do you believe the President was not born in the USA? If so, present your evidence. If not, may I respectfully suggest you find a new preoccupation.

Oddly enough you moved on from "birther nonsense" (a label created by the lib media to make anyone who questions almighty BO's birth documents along with his selective service card sound instantly crazy) while verifiable proof has never been given? That seems strange.
Each and every time requests have been made for the documentation It is soon discovered the forms falsified, forged or re-created. These are common documents nearly every american has on hand. These documents are required in the course of ones life do a multitude of things here in the states. Such as attend primary school, university, to obtain a drivers licenses, gain social security cards, run for Presidential office, and on and on. It's a joke to think that that one would not have these documents.
Do I believe The Prez was born here? I would say I have never even considered a US President or candidate would not have the proper documents or identification. It makes no sense sooooo PROVE it.

[kmurray105]

"certificate of live birth" is a synonym for "birth certificate." this is basic english grammar with the addition of the word "live" to show it was not a dead birth. I was born in NY and that certificate is largely the same as mine.

Sorry KM you are wrong. You could not be more wrong. A cert of live birth is not the same as a birth certificate. Birth certificate is a more detailed form. if you produced on in NY you would not get a drivers license, passport etc. Diferent states, different laws.

Rich, since you still want to discuss this issue, I wanted to follow up on an an exchange between us from last year. As you can see above, you told me I could not be more wrong in stating that a "certificate of live birth" is that same as "birth certificate" and that if i were to produce one in NY I would not get a driver's license, passport, etc. I did not respond at the time, but a while after that I changed jobs and needed to produce my birth certificate for the paperwork. Well, guess what? that NY state "birth certificate" was, in fact, a "certificate of live birth." It contained all the same information as Obama's "short form" certificate of live birth" which was not questioned as a forgery at the time but was questioned because it was not the long form certificate. I used my "certificate of live birth," equivalent to Obama's short form cert, to obtain my Passport, drivers license, and even my social security card as a teen because my parents had not done that when I was born. I have no other certificate and am not aware that one has ever existed.

If Obama's short form certificate of live birth was taken at face value in the first place, in that same way it has been for me, this issue would have died a long time ago. Again, the issue at that time was that the certificate initially produced was not good enough because it was not the "long" certificate, although the document itself was not being questioned. In all of the government funded efforts to produce this long form cert, they screwed this up and it is a great opportunity for right wing extremists to pounce on it all over again. But given that the original certificate produced is no different than my own (and, I expect, that of most everyone else in the US) this has long been a non-issue. Or, on the other hand, perhaps I should not plan to run for president.

One other way to look at this is the Clash Cadillac view that Obama is playing chess with everyone. In other words he is screwing with their heads. Most everyone has moved on from this issue. Those that have not are seen as more and more marginalized and right wing-nutty by the "mainstream" (of society, not just media.) The more they bring this up, the more the right is viewed as extremist and more that centrists and independents view Obama as more to their side of thinking.

[Clash Cadillac]

Do I believe The Prez was born here? I would say I have never even considered a US President or candidate would not have the proper documents or identification. It makes no sense sooooo PROVE it.

The only proof I need is the fact that first McCain and now Romey have not found any evidence to prove that Obama was not born in the USA. Do you really believe that either one of those individuals would stop at nothing to sit in the Oval Office? Throw Hillary Clinton in that group as well. I'm pretty sure Bill had the connections to vet that story to its grave during the 2008 primaries.

[Frances]

Throw Hillary Clinton in that group as well. I'm pretty sure Bill had the connections to vet that story to its grave during the 2008 primaries.

His people are his people. Leave Hillary out of it. Fuck sake.

[philipchevron]

Throw Hillary Clinton in that group as well. I'm pretty sure Bill had the connections to vet that story to its grave during the 2008 primaries.

His people are his people. Leave Hillary out of it. Fuck sake.

I think the point was that the fabled "Clinton Machine", a well oiled Democratic Party powerbase in which Senator Clinton wielded almost as much power as her husband, had already had a good rummage into Obama's past before the McCain campaign had a chance to lay a glove on him. Their fishing expedition failed to land so much as a pinkeen which, though it disheartened McCain, did not stop him (and more particularly the by-then shadowy figure of Karl Rove) from doing his darnedest to discredit Obama. It's true that the Secretary of State and the former President have their own courts now but it's also the case they had and have numerous Clinton Loyalists in common.

[Frances]

Throw Hillary Clinton in that group as well. I'm pretty sure Bill had the connections to vet that story to its grave during the 2008 primaries.

His people are his people. Leave Hillary out of it. Fuck sake.

I think the point was that the fabled "Clinton Machine", a well oiled Democratic Party powerbase in which Senator Clinton wielded almost as much power as her husband, had already had a good rummage into Obama's past before the McCain campaign had a chance to lay a glove on him. Their fishing expedition failed to land so much as a pinkeen which, though it disheartened McCain, did not stop him (and more particularly the by-then shadowy figure of Karl Rove) from doing his darnedest to discredit Obama. It's true that the Secretary of State and the former President have their own courts now but it's also the case they had and have numerous Clinton Loyalists in common.

I know what his point was Philip. I still remember the moment when people were calling Bill Clinton a racist for mentioning Jesse Jackson's state results. I mean, whaaat? Somehow they went from that very bad place to throwing their weight behind Obama. Obama made a deal with the Clintons for sure.

My feeling is that despite others very negative opinion of Hillary Clinton she was a real candidate who could actually debate Obama on issues and didn't have to rely solely on uncovered dirt, of which there was none . So throwing her name in with those ass clowns bugs me. She's working for the man, what more do people need? Absolute loyalty?

They all share a lot in common, getting people elected President who never should have stood a chance in the USA.

[mrdarcey]

I'm not sure the campaign did have time to research Obama in that way or what they would have done had they somehow come up with proof Obama was a Kenyan socialist fascist muslim turrist. They assumed Edwards was the threat (if they thought one existed at all) and didn't really consider Obama a threat until it was too late. I've heard it said that Edwards own staff knew of his affairs and was ready to turn over on him if he led late in IA because it would have crippled Democratic chances in the general. And campaigns talk. We never went after Edwards for that.

Remember, the Clinton thrust against Obama was that he wasn't prepared, not that he was unqualified. There were racial undercurrents too, but that had to do with certain voting blocs and a fear a black man with a funny name couldn't win the general. And that did turn into a lot of the crap you see now.

[philipchevron]

I'm not sure the campaign did have time to research Obama in that way or what they would have done had they somehow come up with proof Obama was a Kenyan socialist fascist muslim turrist. They assumed Edwards was the threat (if they thought one existed at all) and didn't really consider Obama a threat until it was too late. I've heard it said that Edwards own staff knew of his affairs and was ready to turn over on him if he led late in IA because it would have crippled Democratic chances in the general. And campaigns talk. We never went after Edwards for that.

Remember, the Clinton thrust against Obama was that he wasn't prepared, not that he was unqualified. There were racial undercurrents too, but that had to do with certain voting blocs and a fear a black man with a funny name couldn't win the general. And that did turn into a lot of the crap you see now.

All points well taken. Nevertheless, you would struggle to persuade me that either Karl Rove or the Clinton Machine had not exhausted all avenues of enquiry into Senator Obama by March 2008. It is true that Senator Clinton's original sin was to underestimate her rival: but impossible to believe that Obama's speech at the 2004 Dem convention had not alerted the shrewder members of her staff, as it alerted me, that there well and truly was a new kid on the block.

[mrdarcey]

Fair enough, but I'd make two points: A) You're over-estimating some of the brain power on the Clinton staff (*ahemMarkPennandLannyDavis*); and B) We were broke after IA. I'm not sure how much they had left for research. The campaign laid off 90+% of the staff on 1/4/08 and retained the rest at bargain rates to just do 8-12 hours of calls a day from DeMoines. Later they hired people back after they got some funds again, but the Clinton camp never intended the race to go beyond IA. They thought they had it won from day one. In truth they predicted a turn out of 160-180k in IA. Actual numbers were 250k+. They seriously underestimated Obama from top down. In the field we were never told he was the threat. It was always Edwards until like two weeks before the caucuses.

That being said, the thought that Obama wasn't a U.S. citizen is such a stupid idea that it probably never actually occurred to anyone to check. I'm sure they checked everything they could think of, including Bill Ayers. You're right that they would have done a lot to get her into office.

[Frances]

You're right that they would have done a lot to get her into office.

One would hope. That was the point.


I'm not really following this Republican Charlie Foxtrot too closely, fat head, abortion, birth control, $ wealth $, dogs on top of cars, stay at home wives, yadda, yadda...
but Condi Rice is rumoured?
Jesus F-ing Christ.

Also, O'Biden has got to go. It's a fucking big deal.

[philipchevron]

You're right that they would have done a lot to get her into office.

One would hope. That was the point.


I'm not really following this Republican Charlie Foxtrot too closely, fat head, abortion, birth control, $ wealth $, dogs on top of cars, stay at home wives, yadda, yadda...
but Condi Rice is rumoured?
Jesus F-ing Christ.

Also, O'Biden has got to go. It's a fucking big deal.

Latest Bulletin:

Obama still a Harvard/Negroid/Commie/Kenyan/Muslim whose wife has a fat ass

but possible GOP Veep candidate Condi Rice an educated/cultured/African-American with endearingly characterful front teeth.

also Obama is coming for your guns in his second term. He didn't do this in his first term because he wanted to lull you into false security.

also, lock up your dog. Obama wants to eat it.


Now you're back in the loop.

[Frances]

Latest Bulletin:

Obama still a Harvard/Negroid/Commie/Kenyan/Muslim whose wife has a fat ass

but possible GOP Veep candidate Condi Rice an educated/cultured/African-American with endearingly characterful front teeth.

also Obama is coming for your guns in his second term. He didn't do this in his first term because he wanted to lull you into false security.

also, lock up your dog. Obama wants to eat it.


Now you're back in the loop.

Good thing the Mormon Church is trying to repackage, recant, reinvent? the whole blacks are below whites belief system or this cartoon team wouldn't get of the ground.
They are dead fucking serious about taking other peoples rights away.
Fuck Mitt Romney and his sidekick.

Who called Mrs. Obama fat? Limbaugh? If only everybody who ate at Five Guys looked that fit.

The video of her visiting Sesame Street was nearly as charming as Colbert reading Ferdinand to children.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hbx1gpipO2w&feature=relmfu

[mrdarcey]

Latest Bulletin:

Obama still a Harvard/Negroid/Commie/Kenyan/Muslim whose wife has a fat ass

but possible GOP Veep candidate Condi Rice an educated/cultured/African-American with endearingly characterful front teeth.

also Obama is coming for your guns in his second term. He didn't do this in his first term because he wanted to lull you into false security.

also, lock up your dog. Obama wants to eat it.

Now you're back in the loop.

This made me smile. Though i do hope rice - who is the definition of educated elite - would turn down a vp slot. Is the hope to draw in moderates to the "already moderate" romney? Doesn't seem like she does what he needs, and he doesn't sew a swing state with her. Still think its ryan.

[Frances]

Is the hope to draw in moderates to the "already moderate" romney?

Token woman.
Will make women want to give up rights to birth control, abortion choice, equal pay and...
Boy howdy!

I believe she'd do it. This is the woman who was shoe shopping, attending Spamalot and taking pro tennis lessons during Hurricane Katrina while dead Americans floated down the streets of New Orleans.

Fuck her.

[philipchevron]

Is the hope to draw in moderates to the "already moderate" romney?

Token woman.
Will make women want to give up rights to birth control, abortion choice, equal pay and...
Boy howdy!

I believe she'd do it. This is the woman who was shoe shopping, attending Spamalot and taking pro tennis lessons during Hurricane Katrina while dead Americans floated down the streets of New Orleans.

Fuck her.

Also, the woman whose Thesis - on the Soviet Union - was greeted with derision at peer review level but was still admired enough elsewhere to land her a job in State and Security departments by a Republican administration characteristically still fighting the last war in early 2001.