The Pogues without Shane

[MacRua]

Whatever everyone else's thoughts are there is a "Shane?" thread - 8 pages of more or less the same question "Will Shane be playing..?". And nothing like "Jem?" or "Andrew?" threads. Dunno why. A sheer mystery..

Sorry, I'm missing your point? Could you explain please? Think my english is letting me down here..

Either English or the power of apprehension, yeah..

With all that unconditional support, intense interest for solo creativity, recognition and appreciation of individual talents and skills claimed here we should have had a separate “Will X be playing..” thread for each member of the band, theoretically. In fact we have.. well, we have what we have..

Did you bother to peep into above mentioned thread? I suppose you did not. Or you’d maybe notice that it’s not Mick Molloy or Heather or Soulfinger who worry and want to be sure that Shane’s presence at announced gigs is granted. It’s either guests or users who got registered just for the sake of one post – “Will Shane be playing..” . Something that doesn’t matter for you, dear die hard fans, does matter for those for whom the band or its golden years and hits are associated with just one person. You, being fans, rush to protect your favourite band and your own views from fans’ position. Look around, there is life over board. And it’s not only die hard fans who pack arenas. Half of an audience are not able to name the rest of musicians in the band besides Shane (and misspell his surname), all they know is Fairytale of New York (sometimes by heart, yeah) and greatly exaggerated legends of wilderness and excess. Their huge interest for Shane and lack of interest for the rest of the band has nothing to do with talents, professionalism or skills of any of them. It’s show business and too often it’s more about show than anything else. Shane is a frontman, he has charisma (whatever it is) and he is a personage of a modern myth. It’s not Jem or Darryl who is all over The Mirror, Daily Record, The Sun, etc. "MacGowan Loses Two More Teeth In Drinking Mishap", "Shane MacGowan grunted affectionally at a cyclist", "Boozy Shane shore looks odd", "Shane started drinking at 4", "Loo man hit rocker Shane", "MacGowan and Doherty Pose Naked".. It's not Philip or Terry whose antics they describe so vividly, and it's not Spider they love to gossip about. IF local TVs have James or Andrew in four different programs during Christmas octave, they fail to inform people about it. Are there books or documentaries dedicated to any member personally, besides Shane? If there are, I somehow managed to miss them. And people long to pay their money and see live what they have been feeding with from papers and screens. They long for a show. The Pogues’ gig for many of them is more than a gig, it’s a huge booze with main boozer at the mic. They go to see a living legend (who is to die any moment according to mass media) and want to be sure they’ll have something to tell their grand kids about. Like fucked up lyrics, falls on arse, puke all over the front row and two bottles of whiskey downed during the show. In that case The Pogues can easily turn into backing band, producing the greatest soundtrack to the greatest show on Earth. Ok, morons aside, but Shane IS kind of a focus and focusing on them some people do tend to overlook the "less-dramatic" rest of the band.

“Shane?” thread IS telling for those who bother to listen. It doesn’t make the rest of the band worse musicians. Underrated - yes, but not worthless of course. But.. as I said some do long to see Shane first of all, even if it means they are deaf and tasteless.

Can the Pogues play without Shane? - they can, obviously, and they used to do it for years before.
Will their Shane-less gigs be a great performance, tight and professional? - without any doubts!!
But would Shane-less Pogues gather arenas year after year? Would promoters receive them with open arms? And would they be offered “a six-figure sum per show”? - I am not sure..
Would there be reunions without Shane? I doubt it too. No Shane – no “reunion” and no “classic line-up”.
All of above goes for Pogues-less Shane too actually. (though he with The Popes lasted twice longer than The Pogues without him, but that’s another story.)

[James]

It's not Philip or Terry whose antiques they describe so vividly

I understand Terry Woods has a fine old table. He'd sell it, but it holds a lot of sentimental value. Phil Lynott tried to steal it once, but Tel stopped him as he strolled out into the night air with the table strapped to his back. The incident later turned into the Thin Lizzy song 'Showdown'.

[philipchevron]

Macrua, that's a valiant attempt to defend your position, but it doesn't pass muster. It is not the people for whom Shane is some sort of freak show/celebrity who attend Pogues gigs in the first place. For those people, Shane exists in the same bubble as Amy Winehouse, Pete Doherty and Paris Hilton and they assuredly do not spend £40 a ticket to go to concerts.

[MacRua]

I am not sure what is bigger blessing - naivety or self-assurance, but you are a lucky guy anyway.
If shows, books, documentaries, tabloids, reviews, “Shane-o” screams during support acts, “Shane?” thread and “he’s your meal ticket ” posts is not enough, only cupla Shane-less “re-unions” can arbitrate. Gonna risk it or leave it as it is?

And do not underestimate wealth and stupidity. 40 quids is nothing, they spend more on drinks, drugs and other shite. Do you really think they’d grudge and not shell out to see living (or “dying” since journos can't stop worrying over his health) legend performing the best Christmas song ever?! If you were right, Amy would be dying of starvation by now..

But again: morons aside! Shane IS a hero for thousands, with different objective and subjective reasons for it. And no wonder he is kind of a focus in the Pogues. Why deny it?

[DzM]

I am not sure what is bigger blessing - naivety or self-assurance, but you are a lucky guy anyway.
If shows, books, documentaries, tabloids, reviews, “Shane-o” screams during support acts, “Shane?” thread and “he’s your meal ticket ” posts is not enough, only cupla Shane-less “re-unions” can arbitrate. Gonna risk it or leave it as it is? [...]

Shane as a solo act is less of a draw than The Pogues. The Pogues without Shane is less of a draw than The Pogues with Shane. Both of these things have been proven by history. They all bring their own value to the ensemble. This ongoing argument is ridiculous.

[Guest]

Shane as a solo act is less of a draw than The Pogues. The Pogues without Shane is less of a draw than The Pogues with Shane.

Is The Pogues without Shane more of a draw than Shane as a solo act?

[DzM]

Shane as a solo act is less of a draw than The Pogues. The Pogues without Shane is less of a draw than The Pogues with Shane.

Is The Pogues without Shane more of a draw than Shane as a solo act?

I couldn't say. I have no access to that kind of information. I can say, though, that when I saw The Pogues - Shane perform in San Francisco they played to larger audiences at larger venues (they played at The Warfield and The Fillmore) than Shane + The Popes. Shane + The Popes shows were more sparsely attended and in smaller venues (Great American Music Hall, Slim's). On the other hand Shane + The Popes came around more often.

My conclusion from personal experience is that both draw an audience, and neither draws an audience independently that is/was as large as they draw together.

[MacRua]

I can say, though, that when I saw The Pogues - Shane perform in San Francisco they played to larger audiences at larger venues (they played at The Warfield and The Fillmore) than Shane + The Popes. Shane + The Popes shows were more sparsely attended and in smaller venues (Great American Music Hall, Slim's). On the other hand Shane + The Popes came around more often.

My conclusion from personal experience is that both draw an audience, and neither draws an audience independently that is/was as large as they draw together.

Want to measure whose schwartz is bigger ? Ok..

Also Shane & The Popes played:
9:30 Washington, DC
The Vic Theatre, Chicago
HOB Sunset Strip, LA
The Fillmore, SF …
- the same venues The Pogues played at in 90ies or play now (with average capacity of 1200)
As well as The Guvernment, Toronto (1600), Avalon, Boston (2000) or The Electric Factory, Philadelphia and Webster Hall, New York (2500 both)

On this side of Atlantic it usually was Glasgow Barrowlands, Shepherds Bush, The Forum, London (all of them are about 2000) and The Point, Dublin – 8000!!! So everything is relative and depends on who counts

[firehazard]

Shane & The Popes played...

But did they sell out those venues? Last time I saw Shane and the Popes, at the Corn Exchange in Cambridge, it was a damn fine gig, but the venue was half-empty. But in the good old days when The Pogues played the same venue, it would have been full.

I don't have access to info on sales for specific gigs at any of those venues. And of course it could all be down to marketing. But the capacity of the venue played is not necessarily an indication of the number of people that were there. I mean, I could play the Albert Hall myself, but I shouldn't think I'd sell it out.

Can't help feeling this is a pointless argument, but hey...

[moose]

My Shane is bigger than your Shane

[chatterbox]

It is not that it is not discusable, I think it was discussed around here a couple of times. It's the stupid tone some had during this discussion..

Fair enough.

[James]

Can this argument not just fuck-off? I find it completely grating and pointless.

[jennylois]

Maybe I'm just naive because I haven't ever seen the band play live, but from what I have seen, Shane performing live appears much the same as he always has, allowing for the passing of years. Seems that some just don't understand the real guts of the band.

[MacRua]

Shane & The Popes played...

But did they sell out those venues? Last time I saw Shane and the Popes, at the Corn Exchange in Cambridge, it was a damn fine gig, but the venue was half-empty. But in the good old days when The Pogues played the same venue, it would have been full....

Wait! Let's decide first what we are going to compare. Good old days of The Pogues with bad last days of The Popes or what? A period with one particular gig?

Selling venues out is not only about the crowd inside. It's about credibility with promoters as well. Nobody would deal with you and book you in a big venue if you keep betraying their dearest expectations, it's business. And The Popes were not one night stand after all, they lasted for 12 fucking years, more or less successfuly. Playing at the same venues again and again.

I don't have access to info on sales for specific gigs at any of those venues...

You do not need access to gross books. All you need is an access to old reviews actually

A Dublin audience was unable to contain its wanton abandon last night when Shane MacGowan and his new band The Popes took the Olympia Theatre by storm - they promptly smashed up rows of seats in the venue. From the time he went on stage at 1.30am until 80 minutes later, at least two dozen recently refurbished seats at the theatre were destroyed in an evening of furious music and riotous dancing. Up to 10 security men crouched on the stage front, barely containing the crowd. So wild was the dancing that several people were plucked from the audience and ejected with no small force via the side of the stage. The venue was packed to capacity for the first full-length lrish concert by MacGowan and his band. The audience came to see lreland's leading straight-from-the-heart songwriter in the flesh, and in return MacGowan threw his all into the late-night performance. -- Evening Press, 25 November 1994

or

The rockers' early St. Patrick's Day celebration felt more like a wake. <...>
The Pogues' current album, Waiting for Herb (Elektra), is its first without Shane MacGowan, the brilliant but dissipated singer and main songwriter who was drummed out of the group for health reasons (his and theirs) after engineering a stylistic redirection on 1990's Hell's Ditch. To the others' credit, the new record managed a return to more familiar terrain without serious incident. But the Pogues have always made their way as a great live act, and Sunday's timely appearance at the Beacon was an important test of the group's post-MacGowan mettle.

Unfortunately, it was impossible to gauge from this futile effort; Spider Stacy, the tin-whistle-playing co-founder who has taken over the lead singer's role, could muster nothing more than a raspy croak. If the band's lifeless playing was a considerate attempt to gear down for his benefit, it was to no avail. Only the tender "Dirty Old Town" was low-key enough to help. -- Newsday, 15 March 1994

BTW it illustrates bad and good days principle too. The rest of reviews of The Pogues' gigs from that period are absolutely positive. So once again - what are we going to compare?

[Toby]

I think this review from the first reunion tour should act as an end tothis 'debate' and is extremely accurate in my view;

http://www.nme.com/reviews/the-pogues/5976

Especially this paragraph and in particular the last sentence within;

The band are incredible, whip-snap tight and ferocious in their drive, looking like lounge rats who have just beat the shit out of the Bad Seeds without spilling their drinks. They guide MacGowan through this greatest hits set - 'A Rainy Night In Soho', 'Thousands Are Sailing', 'Fiesta', 'Sally MacLennane', 'Dirty Old Town', 'Turkish Song Of The Damned' - though for all their charged musicianship they need him as much as he them.