The Medusa Fora

dsweeney wrote: and I think possibly James.

The maestro is only a "possibly"?!?...well you know best.

Thanks ! I do. But the reason I say " possibly " is because I seem to remember the others persuading James to throw his lot in with them and learn the accordion. In other words he wasn't there at the very outset.

philipchevron wrote:

dsweeney wrote:

Eckhard wrote:I have been mostly absent over the last couple of months. Upon my return I find somebody debating the historic facts of the band's history with members of the band, which I find pretty amusing to be honest.

I'm glad you're amused. But the band members concerned weren't ACTUALLY IN THE BAND AT THE TIME IN QUESTION. So their opinion is no more relevent or informed than anybody elses. And others have already expressed the exact same sentiment as you just did anyway.

Sweeney, you're a piece of work, you know that? My friendship with Shane dates to before the beginning of Pogue Mahone. If it would help you locate your wishful thinking in a specific time and place, I first met Shane at the Vortex Club in London in September 1977. It was, in fact, the very first London gig by the Radiators from Space.

You know what Chevron, I couldn't care less where or when you met Shane. It doesn't alter the fact that YOU WEREN'T IN THE FUCKING BAND. Geddit ? See my point ? Shane met lots of people. So fucking what ? Does that mean that every cunt he ran into had a say in the original idea of the Pogues ? Not to be formed until, what, 1982 ? Five years later ? By your rational every barman that barred Shane can claim ownership of the Pogues. The squaddies who threw chips at him and Spider can claim to have had an influence on the band, according to your logic.

dsweeney, what irritates me and probably some others is that certain unfriendliness in your choice of words, but I will nonetheless try to add my 0,02 $: So Mr. chevron wasn't in the original line-up, okay. Does this make him a bad witness of the band's history? I guess not. I mean, there have obviously been many connections between band members accepted by you as original and Mr. Chevron. Then he produced some of their stuff before becoming an "official member" somewhere around 1985. I think we can accept the latter as undisputed, right?
Normally people talk to each other, don't they? Especially when they have to spend long times of waiting, like for example while travelling with each other. So even if Mr. C. may probably have not been directly on spot on certain occasions, he very certainly got told quite a lot.
Actually, while writing, I thought that this is somehow a rather weird discussion: Shouldn't you just be happy that he takes his time to share his stories with us inlcuding you.
I mean: Who of us, back in 1985 while listening to RS&tL, would have expected that one day we would be able to get in touch with our favourite band's guitar player ( and other band members ) through the both the wonders of technology and the friendlyness of Mr. C. to tell those old stories.

Which raises the question: What's the real problem dsweeney?

Eckhard wrote:Which raises the question: What's the real problem dsweeney?

I have the nagging feeling he always wanted to be a rhythm guitar player.... but failed

dsweeney wrote:

philipchevron wrote:

dsweeney wrote:

Eckhard wrote:I have been mostly absent over the last couple of months. Upon my return I find somebody debating the historic facts of the band's history with members of the band, which I find pretty amusing to be honest.

I'm glad you're amused. But the band members concerned weren't ACTUALLY IN THE BAND AT THE TIME IN QUESTION. So their opinion is no more relevent or informed than anybody elses. And others have already expressed the exact same sentiment as you just did anyway.

Sweeney, you're a piece of work, you know that? My friendship with Shane dates to before the beginning of Pogue Mahone. If it would help you locate your wishful thinking in a specific time and place, I first met Shane at the Vortex Club in London in September 1977. It was, in fact, the very first London gig by the Radiators from Space.

You know what Chevron, I couldn't care less where or when you met Shane. It doesn't alter the fact that YOU WEREN'T IN THE FUCKING BAND. Geddit ? See my point ? Shane met lots of people. So fucking what ? Does that mean that every cunt he ran into had a say in the original idea of the Pogues ? Not to be formed until, what, 1982 ? Five years later ? By your rational every barman that barred Shane can claim ownership of the Pogues. The squaddies who threw chips at him and Spider can claim to have had an influence on the band, according to your logic.

If you seriously think that somebody who is a member of The Pogues, regardless of when they joined and how long they have known individual members for, is no more qualified to comment on their histroy than you are then you are as arrogant as you are ignorant.

Sweeney, go pick up a copy of Carole Clerk's book "Pogue Mahone - The Story of the Pogues" - which includes lots of contribution from everybody in the band, regardless of when they joined, and others to boot - and please don't post any more until you've read your way through it, 'kay?

(There's lots else to read, in print & online, but that's as comprehensive a place as one could hope to start).

At the risk of digging into your psychology, you seem to react badly when anybody contradicts your ideas of the band. I might say overreact. It's fine to have ideas and opinions, but arguing with well-informed people - including members of the band (and arguing with them based on the date they joined) about what did or did not happen... well, just step back a few, take a deep breath.... it's a bit weird, innit? So if it's so important to you - and clearly, it is - go do a bit of research, let the facts sink in, and see how it affects what you think about the band.

Low D wrote:Sweeney, go pick up a copy of Carole Clerk's book "Pogue Mahone - The Story of the Pogues" - which includes lots of contribution from everybody in the band, regardless of when they joined, and others to boot - and please don't post any more until you've read your way through it, 'kay?

You might want to start with pages 56-60.

Kilmichael wrote:

Low D wrote:Sweeney, go pick up a copy of Carole Clerk's book "Pogue Mahone - The Story of the Pogues" - which includes lots of contribution from everybody in the band, regardless of when they joined, and others to boot - and please don't post any more until you've read your way through it, 'kay?

You might want to start with pages 56-60.

No wait, let me:

Shane MacGowan, Jem Finer and James Fearnley were now working seriously towards the establishment of The Pogues. But MacGowan had a secret, and he kept it for quite some time. He had already decided on a fourth member: Spider Stacy was going to be the singer.

Low D wrote:

Kilmichael wrote:

Low D wrote:Sweeney, go pick up a copy of Carole Clerk's book "Pogue Mahone - The Story of the Pogues" - which includes lots of contribution from everybody in the band, regardless of when they joined, and others to boot - and please don't post any more until you've read your way through it, 'kay?

You might want to start with pages 56-60.

No wait, let me:

Shane MacGowan, Jem Finer and James Fearnley were now working seriously towards the establishment of The Pogues. But MacGowan had a secret, and he kept it for quite some time. He had already decided on a fourth member: Spider Stacy was going to be the singer.

Let me see if I can anticipate the response. I shall omit the poorly-applied belligerent language, if nobody minds.

"What would a former Melody Maker journalist know? Was she in the room at the time? Just because she spent two years researching her book, engaging in countless lengthy conversations with seven band members [and a brief encounter with Shane] in that time, in person and by phone, is this any reason to believe she knew what she was talking about? No, mark my words, it is NOT."

Am I close?

philipchevron wrote:

Low D wrote:

Kilmichael wrote:

Low D wrote:Sweeney, go pick up a copy of Carole Clerk's book "Pogue Mahone - The Story of the Pogues" - which includes lots of contribution from everybody in the band, regardless of when they joined, and others to boot - and please don't post any more until you've read your way through it, 'kay?

You might want to start with pages 56-60.

No wait, let me:

Shane MacGowan, Jem Finer and James Fearnley were now working seriously towards the establishment of The Pogues. But MacGowan had a secret, and he kept it for quite some time. He had already decided on a fourth member: Spider Stacy was going to be the singer.

Let me see if I can anticipate the response. I shall omit the poorly-applied belligerent language, if nobody minds.

"What would a former Melody Maker journalist know? Was she in the room at the time? Just because she spent two years researching her book, engaging in countless lengthy conversations with seven band members [and a brief encounter with Shane] in that time, in person and by phone, is this any reason to believe she knew what she was talking about? No, mark my words, it is NOT."

Am I close?

You left out the part about how Carole is just another sycophant currying favour with you by including only your version of the band's history in her book.

Low D wrote:

Kilmichael wrote:

Low D wrote:Sweeney, go pick up a copy of Carole Clerk's book "Pogue Mahone - The Story of the Pogues" - which includes lots of contribution from everybody in the band, regardless of when they joined, and others to boot - and please don't post any more until you've read your way through it, 'kay?

You might want to start with pages 56-60.

No wait, let me:

Shane MacGowan, Jem Finer and James Fearnley were now working seriously towards the establishment of The Pogues. But MacGowan had a secret, and he kept it for quite some time. He had already decided on a fourth member: Spider Stacy was going to be the singer.

I stand corrected so, Spider was intended to be the singer. But guess what ? I thought the " secret fourth member " was going to be Chevron. But no, it wasn't. But to someone up above saying , "who in '85 listening to Rum... would think we'd be here talking to one of the band members" of said classic, I would only say this; You know what they say, you should never meet your heroes!
I play both lead and rhythm guitar.

I find it curious how, despite OTHERS constantly picking rows with ME, that everybody becomes choir boys all of a sudden and are offended at my language. This, from Pogues fans ? As someonoe who may or may not be a Pogues fan, " you CANNOT be Serious "!!
I, as much as anyone, value Cheveron's views. But the accusation that it is " ludicrous, crazy " etc to argue with a member of the band in relation to a period when he wasn't IN the band, just doesn't stand up.

dsweeney wrote:

Low D wrote:

Kilmichael wrote:

Low D wrote:Sweeney, go pick up a copy of Carole Clerk's book "Pogue Mahone - The Story of the Pogues" - which includes lots of contribution from everybody in the band, regardless of when they joined, and others to boot - and please don't post any more until you've read your way through it, 'kay?

You might want to start with pages 56-60.

No wait, let me:

Shane MacGowan, Jem Finer and James Fearnley were now working seriously towards the establishment of The Pogues. But MacGowan had a secret, and he kept it for quite some time. He had already decided on a fourth member: Spider Stacy was going to be the singer.

I stand corrected so, Spider was intended to be the singer. But guess what ? I thought the " secret fourth member " was going to be Chevron. But no, it wasn't. But to someone up above saying , "who in '85 listening to Rum... would think we'd be here talking to one of the band members" of said classic, I would only say this; You know what they say, you should never meet your heroes!
I play both lead and rhythm guitar.

I find it curious how, despite OTHERS constantly picking rows with ME, that everybody becomes choir boys all of a sudden and are offended at my language. This, from Pogues fans ? As someonoe who may or may not be a Pogues fan, " you CANNOT be Serious "!!
I, as much as anyone, value Cheveron's views. But the accusation that it is " ludicrous, crazy " etc to argue with a member of the band in relation to a period when he wasn't IN the band, just doesn't stand up.

Personally I just think your looking at the issue over Phil's knowledge of this as if its just a case of black or white/left or right. What I mean is that either he was in the band and he knows or he wasnt in the band and he doesnt know. Nothing in life is that simple. The fact that Phil was involved with the band at all different levels almost from the outset gives him a better knowledge than myself and dare I say you. Unless there was a dark dark secret that nobody in the band talked about when Phil joined why the hell wouldnt he know?? Wasnt it Phil who brought the Pogues to Costellos attention in 84?? I dont understand what problem you have with the guy? You accuse him of trying to re write the bands history because it doesnt fit in with what you believe the Pogues are about. In the post down the corridor you talk about imagine if the Stiff problems hadnt happened and how IISFFGWG would have sounded with Rainy night and Body of American on it wich is cool for cats as a subject however I cant help but think this is more about how YOU see the Pogues and not the reality of it. Im not saying that im right about that its just the feeling I get when I read your posts. No ones arsed about bad language on the forum but I think you missed the point. Its the way you use that language to attack others and of course people react back to that. Finally I think your argument that we all just scuk up to Phil is misguided. Most people on here will agree with Phil because there is no reason not to agree over issues regarding the band. Without wanting be over dramatic aboout it he has sacrifced his health and most of his lfie to the Pogues, I think that deserves a little respect. However there are pages on this forum were people have completly disagreed wth Phil. Mostly found on Speakers Corner were none Pogues subjects are discussed.

Rich, I have no " problem with the guy", none whatsover. If anything, almost from the word go, Phil seemed to have a problem with me. I made an inaccurate statement some time back and even as I was typing I said to myself people could misread it, but I credited them with enough intelligence to graciously see the point I was making. I was wrong. They latched onto it to confuse the issue and turn the argument into something else entirely. This was an effort to deflect the focus of the argument away from what they KNEW they had been wrong to say in the first place- that the band were ALWAYS eclectic and that it was only lazy people like me who believed they played Irish/ folk/ traditional music. Even went on to accredit me with things I never said.
Just to stay more on this thread though, my beef here really isn't with Phil at all. More with those who say it's ridiculous to argue with a member of the band. My contention is that as he wasn't in the band, no matter how close to them he was, at the critical time, then my opinion is just as valid as his.Well ok, maybe not AS valid, he having more first hand experience, but certainly not as " crazy" as some have said on here.

dsweeney wrote:Just to stay more on this thread though, my beef here really isn't with Phil at all. More with those who say it's ridiculous to argue with a member of the band. My contention is that as he wasn't in the band, no matter how close to them he was, at the critical time, then my opinion is just as valid as his.Well ok, maybe not AS valid, he having more first hand experience, but certainly not as " crazy" as some have said on here.

Well, as you've now admitted that your opinion on this matter was wrong, then clearly that opinion wasn't as valid as Phil's, as his opinion was the factually correct one.

Still, fair play to you for actually admitting you were wrong. Finally.