WARNERS/RHINO POGUES BOX SET, 2008

[dbohn]

Said I:
given the rather extreme processing done to make the track sound old, I thought I'd check.

Said Philip:
Ha! Believe me, the crappy old cassette tape this came from, complete with skewed azymouth, is not so far from the final version. Myself, Jem and Nick Robbins had the unusual challenge of simultaneously cleaning the track up and grunging it down.[/quote]

Asks me:
So is the needle drop and associated sounds part of the original recording/concept or something that was added in preparation of release in the box set?

[philipchevron]

Asks me:
So is the needle drop and associated sounds part of the original recording/concept or something that was added in preparation of release in the box set?

Well, lets say that a lo-fi vibe was always intended from the start, but not quite as lo-fi as the tape turned out to be after 20 years in a drawer. The old 78rpm shellac disc effect was added at the mastering stage, but we found it more helpful to add it to a processed, cleaned-up recording, rather than make the tape noise part of the final thing. The inspiration for the old 78 idea comes from "For My Mary" from the album of the shortlived Broadway show Rags, and also from the second version of "Innocent When You Dream" from the Tom Waits album Franks Wild Years and indeed the needle-drop was inspired by the beginning of a Barbra Streisand career box set which starts with an old acetate of her, in her teens, singing "You'll Never Know".

At the mastering stage, more pains were taken over "The Aria" than any other single track on our box set, with the possible exception of "The Travelling People" and "The Donegal Express", both of which I rejected a number of times before I was satisfied with the eventual result. When working from so many sources on a compendium like this, you have to consider not just what the track sounds like in itself, but also how it affects the tracks on either side, and beyond.

[Clash Cadillac]

When working from so many sources on a compendium like this, you have to consider not just what the track sounds like in itself, but also how it affects the tracks on either side, and beyond.

I think it has been said before on this forum that one of the things that the "kids" today are missing out on by downloading their favorite songs is the experience us old timers had of placing that new piece of vinyl on the turntable and listening to the complete LP that was so carefully crafted with each song placed in just the right spot.

Even earlier posts in this thread indicate that the finished product Philip worked so hard on is not always listened to from beginning to end due to the unfortunate ease with which one can skip ahead to other tracks.

I recently made a various CD for a friend of mine who is a few years older and he commented later to me what a great job I did of placing the songs together. I have been making various "tapes" for 20+ years always carefully crafted and this was the first time someone actually acknowledged my effort.

Just something for everyone to keep in mind the next time they take the wrapping off that new purchase.

[dbohn]

Philip wrote:

Ha! Believe me, the crappy old cassette tape this came from (snip)

Sez I:

I understand fully. I have a large collection of tapes, both reel to reel and cassette. I transferred the reel to reels (my own compositions from the days of the wall-size Moog) in two batches back in 2007, and even then did not always get workable "takes" of everything. I have yet to even consider tackling my cassettes, which contain live performances-- and those will be strictly for my own amusement, not for public consumption!

On another front, I'm just a little surprised that there wasn't more material from the Aria than just the cassette. I remember reading about it in a magazine article from back when P&L came out, and I assumed from the wording of the article that there was a nice, clean (or clean enough), multitrack copy of it wedged somewhere in with the other P&L songs.

[scott]

and indeed the needle-drop was inspired by the beginning of a Barbra Streisand career box set which starts with an old acetate of her, in her teens, singing "You'll Never Know".

Hmmm, am I the only one disturbed by your knowledge of Barbara Streisand recordings?



scott

[Kilmichael]

On another front, I'm just a little surprised that there wasn't more material from the Aria than just the cassette. I remember reading about it in a magazine article from back when P&L came out, and I assumed from the wording of the article that there was a nice, clean (or clean enough), multitrack copy of it wedged somewhere in with the other P&L songs.

This is interesting... was the Aria recorded for P&L then, or just at around the same time? Don't think I've ever come across that article, it'd be interesting to hear more.

[MacRua]

This is interesting... was the Aria recorded for P&L then, or just at around the same time? Don't think I've ever come across that article, it'd be interesting to hear more.

Could be this:

The Pogues are doing well enough, and remain enterprising enough, to explore some unlikely avenues of musical inspiration. "There are eight really strong personalities in the band," MacGowan comments. "Everybody writes." Jem Finer, who plays banjo, sax and hurdy-gurdy and who pulled the Pogues together in the early days, has written, with the aid of a "very old Italian phrase book," an aria. "We've rehearsed it," he reveals, "but it wasn't recorded for the album. Various factions thought it was pushing things a bit far. But opera is one of our secret desires." Unlike British soldiers on a pub crawl, opera fans have been known to throw objects somewhat heftier than chits. But after nearly a decade, the Pogues still dote on stirring things up. -- Time Magazine, 21 Aug, 1989.

[Kilmichael]

Thanks MacRua, interesting stuff! I guess the version on the box set is maybe a demo version Jem did prior to the P&L sessions then, or a rough version recorded before it was decided it was 'pushing things a bit far'... Always something new to learn about the boys!

[MacRua]

Thanks MacRua, interesting stuff! <...>
Always something new to learn about the boys!

I've uploaded the whole article. Enjoy!

[philipchevron]

and indeed the needle-drop was inspired by the beginning of a Barbra Streisand career box set which starts with an old acetate of her, in her teens, singing "You'll Never Know".

Hmmm, am I the only one disturbed by your knowledge of Barbara Streisand recordings?



scott

Yes. And it's Barbra. But you should be very scared of my encyclopaedic knowledge of musicals which closed after just four performances on Broadway.

[philipchevron]

I understand fully. I have a large collection of tapes, both reel to reel and cassette. I transferred the reel to reels (my own compositions from the days of the wall-size Moog) in two batches back in 2007.

My other band The Radiators worked in 1979/1980 with Robert Moog's original "wall sized" moog, which was then owned by our producer, Hans Zimmer. I never quite understood what it did, though Hans certainly did, and it is liberally sprinkled over the two Rads singles he produced, "Stranger Than Fiction" and, especially, "The Dancing Years". Neither was a hit but Zimmer, of course went on to bigger and perhaps better things in Hollywood. Academy Award-winning things, anyway.

[philipchevron]

When working from so many sources on a compendium like this, you have to consider not just what the track sounds like in itself, but also how it affects the tracks on either side, and beyond.

I think it has been said before on this forum that one of the things that the "kids" today are missing out on by downloading their favorite songs is the experience us old timers had of placing that new piece of vinyl on the turntable and listening to the complete LP that was so carefully crafted with each song placed in just the right spot.

Even earlier posts in this thread indicate that the finished product Philip worked so hard on is not always listened to from beginning to end due to the unfortunate ease with which one can skip ahead to other tracks.

I recently made a various CD for a friend of mine who is a few years older and he commented later to me what a great job I did of placing the songs together. I have been making various "tapes" for 20+ years always carefully crafted and this was the first time someone actually acknowledged my effort.

Just something for everyone to keep in mind the next time they take the wrapping off that new purchase.

It's perhaps a bit much to ask anyone to listen to 5 CDs in the right order, but I certainly did intend Disc One to be playable all through, as though it were an old-fashioned album.

I programmed the original vinyl version of If I Should Fall From Grace With God and it drove me nuts when the record company dropped in "South Australia" and "Battle March Medley" apparently at random, as "bonus tracks" on the (then) secondary CD version. There was no chance to correct this until we did the remasters 4 years ago.

[philipchevron]

Thanks MacRua, interesting stuff! <...>
Always something new to learn about the boys!

I've uploaded the whole article. Enjoy!

Jem is not quite accurate when he says opera was one of our "secret" desires. It was an oft-discussed notion at one point between ourselves and Kirsty MacColl, and it mutated into a Pogues/Kirsty version of the musical West Side Story before both our record companies told us not to take so many drugs.

Delighted to finally learn that we did "The Aria" as a demo for possible inclusion on Peace And Love, as none of us, including Jem, was able to remember the context or even the year. In that light, our educated guess of 1988 appears to be good enough.

[dbohn]

This is interesting... was the Aria recorded for P&L then, or just at around the same time? Don't think I've ever come across that article, it'd be interesting to hear more.

Could be this:

The Pogues are doing well enough, and remain enterprising enough, to explore some unlikely avenues of musical inspiration. "There are eight really strong personalities in the band," MacGowan comments. "Everybody writes." Jem Finer, who plays banjo, sax and hurdy-gurdy and who pulled the Pogues together in the early days, has written, with the aid of a "very old Italian phrase book," an aria. "We've rehearsed it," he reveals, "but it wasn't recorded for the album. Various factions thought it was pushing things a bit far. But opera is one of our secret desires." Unlike British soldiers on a pub crawl, opera fans have been known to throw objects somewhat heftier than chits. But after nearly a decade, the Pogues still dote on stirring things up. -- Time Magazine, 21 Aug, 1989.

Yep. That's the quote. I misremembered the quote. I thought it _had_ been recorded for the album. I stand corrected, and it's just another sign that one (or at least I) shouldn't trust one's memory, especially 20 year old recollections of magazine articles.

[dbohn]

Re Boat Train and Night Train to Lorca:

I've listened to both the demos and the final tracks for these titles, and I'm a little torn.
On the one hand, the vocals are a lot clearer on the demos than they are on the final tracks.
On the other hand, I really miss Spider Stacy's contributions on the words "Boat Train"
and the brass, hurdy-gurdy, and the guitar solo on "Lorca".

Re Mistlethrush:

I love that track. Philip, is there a story behind that song?

And, as far as "dream" tracks, I'd add "The Clobberer" (which I don't think was ever recorded),
and "Faithful Departed", which has my vote as a track the Pogues _should_ have recorded.