How Come & The Pogues musical direction

[lavabe]

and by the way again...flogging molly is crap...as most of the other so called in-the-pogues-tradition-bands.

[James]

ok i think this discussion comes to an end....i`m unable to answer all these aspects, details of what is irish folk all about or not and so on...it´s just boring. i´m not a big fan of pure irish folk music and I didn´t read any encyclopedia about it and i`m not interested in....it´s something for theoreticians.

I just love music....music from the last 80 years or so from rare old swing, calypso, ska, rocksteady records over the very beginning of electronical music from the 50s 60s over punk/post punk/new wave/no wave to great stuff from nowadays and so on and so on.
i make my own internet podcast, made a pogues special 3 years ago where i said for example that the pogues where much more than a irishfolkpunkdrunkband.
so ...i don´t wanna discuss details and don´t wanna reproach someone with mistakes he/she made in a quote. we are all not perfect.
as far as i can see - and I say this again - NOONE ever said here the pogues were an irish folk band. noone said they had no other influences in their early songs or performances. of course they had and that´s what it made it so new, so fresh, so diversified, so outstanding.
what I said (and I think that´s what dsweeney wanted to say at least) is that in my opinion the irish folk mixed with the punk ATTITUDE was the main influence in the beginning (several irish folk trad. on "rfm" and more on the first single b-sides) . nothing more nothing less. if this doesn`t count as an argument....then end of.

I'm sorry if I got the wrong end of the stick with your post. I certainly don't doubt that you have a rich and varied taste in music. All I want to do is chat and debate about music with people who have a similar starting off point, I don't want to one-up anyone or anything like that. I'm a bit of an anorak and it's the nitpicky tiny details that others might find deathly dull that interest me. If I'm ever a jerk, I want to be called out on it.

I think you make a very good point about punk attitude, the iconoclasm and irreverence. The sense of black humour of early Pogues, at least, is very wide-boy punk. Down in the Ground Where the Dead Men Go is in the same attitude ballpark as Belsen Was A Gas, but with a lot more wit and intelligence. I think it was Nick Kent, who's a bit of a dick, who said that Shane had a talent for mixing the Byronic with the moronic. I wouldn't put it in those terms, but I think you're right, and the same London that Johnny Rotten inhabited with the class of '76 was the one that shaped MacGowan.

End of? We're in some cool areas, if anyone fancies picking things apart in any way, I'm here.

[lavabe]

I'm sorry if I got the wrong end of the stick with your post. I certainly don't doubt that you have a rich and varied taste in music. All I want to do is chat and debate about music with people who have a similar starting off point, I don't want to one-up anyone or anything like that. I'm a bit of an anorak and it's the nitpicky tiny details that others might find deathly dull that interest me. If I'm ever a jerk, I want to be called out on it.

I think you make a very good point about punk attitude, the iconoclasm and irreverence. The sense of black humour of early Pogues, at least, is very wide-boy punk. Down in the Ground Where the Dead Men Go is in the same attitude ballpark as Belsen Was A Gas, but with a lot more wit and intelligence. I think it was Nick Kent, who's a bit of a dick, who said that Shane had a talent for mixing the Byronic with the moronic. I wouldn't put it in those terms, but I think you're right, and the same London that Johnny Rotten inhabited with the class of '76 was the one that shaped MacGowan.

End of? We're in some cool areas, if anyone fancies picking things apart in any way, I'm here.

hi smerker....everything´s cool indead....no problem...

[dsweeney]

Some clown further up above says he finds it laughable me telling a member of the band what the Pogues were about. Don't be an arsehole all your soddin' life mate. I don't need to be in Iron Maiden to know they play heavy bloody metal. Maybe Phil hasn't listened to " Red roses for me " in twenty years but I have. And I know what's on there. Never mind that the band, long before they even had a record deal, played " ring a ring a rosie " or " How much is that doggie in the window ", from their very first single they played traditional Irish music.This is what the Pogues were when the world first knew of them. There are many words you could use to describe " Red roses.." but " ecclectic " isn't one of them. In fact you could say, to keep somewhat on thread, it is more " Ronnie Drew " than " Ronnie Lane ".

" Clampdown " is more of a traditional Clash tune than " Jimmy jazz ". Discuss.

[Clash Cadillac]

" Clampdown " is more of a traditional Clash tune than " Jimmy jazz ". Discuss.

define traditional

[Fr. McGreer]

" Clampdown " is more of a traditional Clash tune than " Jimmy jazz ". Discuss.

define traditional

We had that question on the last page. read the thread.

[RICHB]

I am the clown by the way who mentioned Phil knowing more about what went on than I do. So unless you are calling him an out and out liar then surely he would know more what was going on within the pogues than either you or I? I mean weve gone from the pogues losing their direction after the first three albums all the way down to Red, Roses for Me now? We all agree that Rum Sodomy had different styles on it and that all the recorded stuff after that did so I find it hard to believe that material wasnt already knocking around in early format when Red Roses for me was released. You seem to be focusing just on what was released in a recorded format. Also whilst were on about the Clash is 'Police and Theives' a punk anthem??

[Clash Cadillac]

" Clampdown " is more of a traditional Clash tune than " Jimmy jazz ". Discuss.

define traditional

We had that question on the last page. read the thread.

I meant the definition of "traditional" regarding The Clash.

[RICHB]

" Clampdown " is more of a traditional Clash tune than " Jimmy jazz ". Discuss.

define traditional

We had that question on the last page. read the thread.

I meant the definition of "traditional" regarding The Clash.

I think somebody made a point earlier on that the clash where a punk band and changed later on. I suppose my argument would be that for a start 'punk' to me is a word that started getting used after the event and by people who wanted to give the sound a name and put it in a nice little box. Secondly any argument reference the clash I feel is blown out of the water with 'Police and Theives' which as you know is one of the earliest songs recorded.

[RICHB]

PS That was me the Clown

[aussieryan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fdw6jC6W9_U

Was looking for some completely different song on youtube last nite and came accross the above by some roundabout route. I dug a bit further to see what phil chevron was up to now and ended up here! Took me back! The first album I ever bought was If I should fall from Grace with God when I was 11. The first concert I ever went to was The Pogues and Joe Strummer in the National Stadium in 1991. Think I still have the ticket at home. Myself and my mate went right up the front as is the want of young lads. Not a great idea at a pogues gig! Anyways I suppose a life long love of music was kicked off by that purchase. I think there was so many influences knocking around the pogues music that it was a great introduction to listening to music with an open mind. i think your missing out if you see them as some trad band in the mould of the bards or somethin. anyways listen to the above tune if you like music. talk about years ahead of its time! and the lyrics...wow! Damien Dempsey stop releasing records its all been done in 3 minutes above! couple of nice musical nods in it for the dsweeneys of the world as well :
kinda half want to ask phil what the song is about but then dont wanna ruin what I think its about in my head!!!

anyways well done all for keepin the music alive.

[dsweeney]

I don't even read the responses on this anymore because I'm sure it's the same old litany of abuse. But one final thing I would say is this. Talk about the bleedin' obvious, the clue is in the title of this thread. "...musical direction" ! If the Pogues were always some mixed bag of half baked takes on the various musics of the world why would the poster even talk of a change in their musical direction ?
I would also say, 'cos there's always another thing, that the Pogues's take on other styles of folk music was probably as offensive to people from that part of the world as Sting 's hideous " white reggae ". Some vague middle eastern sounding melody is probably about as authentic as " Carry on Cleo".
Just to clarify, for some morons on here who haven't read all the posts on this, that I actually like a lot of the later Pogues stuff. P&L has some great songs and HD I like. I also love the Pogue Mahome album. I am simply saying that to deny the first two albums and for the most part IISFFGWG were anything other than Irish traditional and folk music is a lie.It's what they did and what people knew them to be. They latterly evolved/degenerated into the kind of " Fodor's guide to world music " that they became. I love lots of different kinds of music. But Iloved the Pogues for what they were and no amount of revisionism will change what they were.

[RICHB]

I don't even read the responses on this anymore because I'm sure it's the same old litany of abuse. But one final thing I would say is this. Talk about the bleedin' obvious, the clue is in the title of this thread. "...musical direction" ! If the Pogues were always some mixed bag of half baked takes on the various musics of the world why would the poster even talk of a change in their musical direction ?
I would also say, 'cos there's always another thing, that the Pogues's take on other styles of folk music was probably as offensive to people from that part of the world as Sting 's hideous " white reggae ". Some vague middle eastern sounding melody is probably about as authentic as " Carry on Cleo".
Just to clarify, for some morons on here who haven't read all the posts on this, that I actually like a lot of the later Pogues stuff. P&L has some great songs and HD I like. I also love the Pogue Mahome album. I am simply saying that to deny the first two albums and for the most part IISFFGWG were anything other than Irish traditional and folk music is a lie.It's what they did and what people knew them to be. They latterly evolved/degenerated into the kind of " Fodor's guide to world music " that they became. I love lots of different kinds of music. But Iloved the Pogues for what they were and no amount of revisionism will change what they were.

Says it all. 'I dont even read the responses on this anymore' to 'some morons who havent read all the posts on this'. If you read all the posts you would realise that nobody is saying that pogues were some sort of world music band from the off just that there where always different influences on the band . Just as The Sex Pistols werent the only influence on the clash from the off (hence my Police and Theieves comment). Whatever way you want to look at it R,S and L has different styles on it and IISFFGWG even more so. In relation to this discussion alone it doesnt make sense to say that the album is for the most part irish traditional. It either is or isnt. Either those influences where there or not. Either you are wrong or right.

Love the Clown

[_Mick_]

Shane is the same. I mean the common opionion that he left the band because of the direction they where going in (which isnt true) however Snake is a right old mish mash of everything.

The opinion is so common that even Shane shares it:
"They became egomaniacs and wanted to be rock stars. I just wanted to keep on playing Irish music."
"They wanted to vote on everything. I couldn't do the kind of music I wanted to perform. They wouldn't let me do it."

[RICHB]

Shane is the same. I mean the common opionion that he left the band because of the direction they where going in (which isnt true) however Snake is a right old mish mash of everything.

The opinion is so common that even Shane shares it:
"They became egomaniacs and wanted to be rock stars. I just wanted to keep on playing Irish music."
"They wanted to vote on everything. I couldn't do the kind of music I wanted to perform. They wouldn't let me do it."

You could find a Shane quote to suite any argument couldnt you. \He has a brilliant brain that totally contradicts itself. Hence Carol Clarke not really using him and Victoria writting her book as one long interview. At the end of the day the thailand theme from Hells Ditch comes in a large part from Shane himselt so that contradicts that statement from the off. Secondly I think Im right in saying that Shanes main argument for Peace and Love was the fact that he wanted to insert a a fifteen minute long acid track into it (apols if ive got that a bit wrong) and lastly the imediate album he did after the Pogues which Shane often states that is the material that he would have put in the next Pogues album is a mixture of different sounds.