How Come & The Pogues musical direction

[Kilmichael]

Show me where I ever said " Sally MacLenanne " was a tradtitional Irish song ? When Philip ? As usual you're taking things out of context to suit your own argument and people are afraid to contradict you. The song was written by Shane. But it is a song in the style of a million other Irish songs written over centuries. Somebody elsewhere said in fact that Shane never wrote an " original " tune in his life.I dont agree with this of course but you can see their point. Lots of Irish " traditionals " use various melodies and airs. Seeing as you revived this I will make one more attempt on this. I would say " White city " is a more tradtional Pogues tune than " Blue heaven ". Most people with a grasp of the English language and even a cursory knowledge of the Pogues and their music would agree with this statement. Not you and your sycophants though.
The hair splitting over " Matilda.." is so much more of your bollocks. Before you divert everybody with your encyclopaediac knowledge of all things Irish and musical, let me remind us of what this stupid and ridiculous argument is about. Your claim that the Pogues were ALWAYS a musical variety show is pathetic. It is an attempt by you, to justify the later forays into all kinds of musical dead ends to make the Pogues a more "diverse" and "interesting" act. The end result was to make them bland.From devastating readings of old Irish songs and sea shanties to pop shite that sounds like Haircut 100. You are attempting historical revisionism of epic proportions. No matter though. People know what the Pogues were about originally and that's the end of that. End of !!

d, you seem to be confusing "people are afraid to contradict you" with "people agree with you". And it wasn't Philip "splitting hairs" (or, more accuratley, "stating facts") about 'Matilda', it was me. I'm just waiting for you to tell us all 'Dirty Old Town' is a tradiational 'Irish' song as well....

I started off being quite annoyed by this thread, now I just think it's funny. In fact you coming on here and telling somebody who's been in the band for years 'the truth' about what they were about all along is fuckin hilarious. What next? Are you going to start telling Francis Ford Coppola what 'The Godfather' was really all about?

I actuall feel sorry for you d - your completely one dimensional view of the Pogues is actually quite sad... you're missing so much in their music... open your ears and open your mind mate.

[RICHB]

I dont think anyone on this forum would have an issue with challenging Philip if an individual felt he was wrong. Obviously there is a lot he has a better understanding than I do as he was there but in general I think anyone would feel comfortable challenging Phillip and vice versa. I also dont think Philip or anyone else for that matter is making out that the Pogues where a multi cultural world music band just and I'll say it again that there is more to the band than what you are saying

[dsweeney]

Phil is trying to retrospectively claim they were always a mish mash of a multitude of musical styles. They weren't. The early albums were what they built their reputation on, that's all I'm saying. And by the way, Phil is well able to stand up for himself, he doesn't need you to hold his hand.
" Dirty old town " was written by Ewan MacColl, in the sixties I believe. But it is in the style of a traditional folk ballad. Before the Pogues it was most closely associated in Ireland with the Dubliners. In your desperation to side with Phil you are confusing the different usages of the word " traditional ". My argument is that it is a more traditional Pogues tune than fuckin' " Honky tonk women ".
As for opening my mind or whatever you said, might I point out that I actually like quite a lot of the later Pogues stuff. I love the stuff with Kirsty, Straight to hell and Johnny come lately with Steve Earl. It's just not what they were known for and not what people think of when they think of the Pogues.To quote the bard and CHIEF POGUE; " Irish music..it's what we DO ! ".

[RICHB]

My point was regarding your issue that board members wouldnt challenge Phillip. I was just saying im pretty sure most of us would if the case arose (which it rarely does). The thing is you could look at Bob Dylan as a folk singer who went electric however if you read into Dylan you find that right from the off that inside all that traditional folk he was doing there was a massive influence of rock n roll rattling around his head. Therefore when the curtains reopened the second half of the late 60s gig in Manchester and the crowd booed and then sobbed because he had sold out and changed his musical direction, Dylan just scratched his head as if to say this is just who am I and what I am doing now. The Pogues are the same. Shane is the same. I mean the common opionion that he left the band because of the direction they where going in (which isnt true) however Snake is a right old mish mash of everything.

[lavabe]

I mean the common opionion that he left the band because of the direction they where going in (which isnt true) however Snake is a right old mish mash of everything.

in my limited ways of writing in english i have to say that i´m very impressed about dsweeney. you write exactly what i´m thinking about this discussion here....it´s so weird reading all these explanations about the all so many influences and stuff but at the end i´m sitting here, listening to the early pogues songs and what i am hearing?....a so massive irish folk influence that you have to be deaf or just simple ignorante....as i understand it NOOONE said the pogues were an irish folk band. so stop this! that´s what i am saying is: the pogues in the early days had a massive irish folk influence mixed with a punkrock attitude. for me it´s a fact and i think dsweeney would agree. in this point i don´t care what anybody else think....even phil.

just one question i have to you phil: how would you describe "thousands are sailing"? in which tradition do you see this song? a simple rock ballad? or a song with an irish folk attitude with lyrics about a very important irish historical theme - the great movement of irish people to the u.s. (...in brendan behans footsteps...?) why the pogues never play lorelei anymore (a song i really like by the way)?

thx to all for this refreshing discussion.

[lavabe]

by the way...we don´t talk about "the snake" here!!

[Fr. McGreer]

" Dirty old town " was written by Ewan MacColl, in the sixties I believe. But it is in the style of a traditional folk ballad. Before the Pogues it was most closely associated in Ireland with the Dubliners. In your desperation to side with Phil you are confusing the different usages of the word " traditional ". My argument is that it is a more traditional Pogues tune than fuckin' " Honky tonk women ".

D Sweeney, you almost had me on your side and about to start arguing with you, but you just blew it with the above paragraph.

McColl was a British playwrite/songwriter of Scotish descent. He grew up in Salford, Manchester and wrote D.O.T for one of his stage productions. IT IS A FOLK BALLAD INFLUENCED BY HIS SURROUNDINGS. It is NOT "in the style of" anything. If you can presume that Shane first heard Waltzing Matilda by The Dubliners, then i presume you heard the Dubliners version of D.O.T first, and associated it with the "Irish" style. I doubt you first heard Roger Whitiker's or The Spinners' versions. If you did, you would have been supprised by the Irish take on it.

As for 'Honky Tonk Women' not being a "traditional" type of Pogues song, you are fond of quoting lyrics to prove the drinking and good time stereotype so here's one for you....... (just substitute Memphis with the Irish town of your choice)

"I met a gin soaked, barroom queen in Memphis,
She tried to take me upstairs for a ride,
She had to heave me right across her shoulder,
Cause i just can't seem to drink you off my mind"

Those lyrics (Jagger/Richards) could be dropped straight into any number of MacGowan's songs on any albums. Very traditionally Poguesy i'd say.

Ever since i first heard Primal Scream's 'Country Girl', i thought it was basically a Pogues song that should have been written and performed by The Pogues. It's just rollocking, in your face, good ol' fashion rock n roll.

The word traditional in the context of music is usually applied when the origin of the song is unknown and it's been handed down from generation to generation by word of mouth. So McColl's D.O.T is not traditional. But you first heard it sung by The Dubliners in an Irish, ballady kind of style (more roudy perhaps?)

As for not wanting to argue or disagree with Philip, bollocks (as you might put it). I have in the past argued vigourously with both Philip and Spider over ticket prices and attitude towards the band respectively.

Great debate though, D. But with your above paragraph you just lost that debate.

Why not become a member, so we know it's really you when posting?

[Simon]

Fr. McGreer "Ever since i first heard Primal Scream's 'Country Girl', i thought it was basically a Pogues song that should have been written and performed by The Pogues. It's just rollocking, in your face, good ol' fashion rock n roll"

Thanks for introduced me for this great song.
And for this debate about pogues for me the pogues have always been more than just an Irishfolkband.
I don't remember who (maybe you Philip) but i think a member off the band once said the pogues could never have happen inside of Ireland. I think that sums it up well.
See you in Brixton

[in_the_morning]

Very interesting discussion! But this massive categorising and putting-it-into-a-certain-box-thing of the Pogues and their music is just ridiculous. Indeed, there IS so much more to it than "Traditional Irish music mixed with Punk-Rock". No, it's no arselicking, but Phil Chevron and various members (Kilmichael, Fr Mac etc.) are right.

[philipchevron]

just one question i have to you phil: how would you describe "thousands are sailing"? in which tradition do you see this song? a simple rock ballad? or a song with an irish folk attitude with lyrics about a very important irish historical theme - the great movement of irish people to the u.s. (...in brendan behans footsteps...?) why the pogues never play lorelei anymore (a song i really like by the way)?

I'm sorry, I don't really understand the question. I don't "see" the song in any tradition, though I can certainly offer the information that the music was influenced by a number of elements from Irish (O'Carolan) and, more particularly, Irish-American music, specifically the work of George M Cohan, Chauncey Olcott, along with Irish-American vaudeville, and that the lyrics also share some of this lineage, along with a sprinkling of Irish-American novellists and a direct lift from a 19th century emigration ballad. If the song is still being performed 75 years after my death, it will have become a part of both the Irish tradition and the Irish-American tradition though as I won't be around to give a tinker's cuss about that, I'm just happy that it's a mid-to-late 1980s song associated with one of the most interesting bands to come out of the ashes of the punk scene.

dsweeney, our discussion has now come to an end. I am happy to debate/argue with anyone who is capable of presenting an interesting and cogent case and, as many Medusans know who've been here longer than yourself, I am never unwilling to challenge any position I disagree with, in return for which I expect, and receive, robust exhanges from other Medusans, whom I know to be, as you appear not to, the sort of people with neither the inclination nor the time to be sycophantic.

However, your increasingly unfocussed and undisciplined rants now contain nothing I consider worthy of comment.

[Kilmichael]

" Dirty old town " was written by Ewan MacColl, in the sixties I believe. But it is in the style of a traditional folk ballad. Before the Pogues it was most closely associated in Ireland with the Dubliners. In your desperation to side with Phil you are confusing the different usages of the word " traditional ". My argument is that it is a more traditional Pogues tune than fuckin' " Honky tonk women ".

D Sweeney, you almost had me on your side and about to start arguing with you, but you just blew it with the above paragraph.

McColl was a British playwrite/songwriter of Scotish descent. He grew up in Salford, Manchester and wrote D.O.T for one of his stage productions. IT IS A FOLK BALLAD INFLUENCED BY HIS SURROUNDINGS. It is NOT "in the style of" anything. If you can presume that Shane first heard Waltzing Matilda by The Dubliners, then i presume you heard the Dubliners version of D.O.T first, and associated it with the "Irish" style. I doubt you first heard Roger Whitiker's or The Spinners' versions. If you did, you would have been supprised by the Irish take on it.

OK, I'm going to be honest here and say I mentioned 'Dirty Old Town' because I knew that this was exactly how dsweeney would respond - desperately ignoring the facts to support your ever weakening arguement. Dirty Old Town is about fuckin Salford, and is in no way, shape or form a more traditional Pogues tune than Honky Tonk Women. But I see the real issue here now - your concept of 'traditional Irish music' begins and ends with the Dubliners, doesn't it?

First your arguement was that the Pogues were always a 'traditional Irish band', then when presented with songs such as 'Me & Bobby McGee' & 'All Tomorrow's Parties as counter evidence you decided their live stuff didn't count, then it was just their first 3 albums that counted, then just their first 2, then a song like 'Waltzing Matilda' doesn't count, now your arguement is they were always a 'traditional folk band', the 'Irish' bit being conveniently dropped?

I'm going to agree with Philip, kiss his arse and hold his hand all at the same time - there is no point in continuing this discussion any further.

[cagliostro]

in return for which I expect, and receive, robust exhanges from other Medusans, whom I know to be, as you appear not to, the sort of people with neither the inclination nor the time to be sycophantic.

Actually, Mr. Chevron, I'd like to argue with you and say that I am indeed a sycophant.

[James]

I mean the common opionion that he left the band because of the direction they where going in (which isnt true) however Snake is a right old mish mash of everything.

in my limited ways of writing in english i have to say that i´m very impressed about dsweeney. you write exactly what i´m thinking about this discussion here....it´s so weird reading all these explanations about the all so many influences and stuff but at the end i´m sitting here, listening to the early pogues songs and what i am hearing?....a so massive irish folk influence that you have to be deaf or just simple ignorante....as i understand it NOOONE said the pogues were an irish folk band. so stop this! that´s what i am saying is: the pogues in the early days had a massive irish folk influence mixed with a punkrock attitude. for me it´s a fact and i think dsweeney would agree. in this point i don´t care what anybody else think....even phil.

No one's denying that there's a massive folk influence on early Pogues. But country music, Buddy Holly style rock 'n' roll (much moreso than punk, the punk influence was always heavier in the lyrics than the music in the Pogues) and debauched New York sleaze as well as everything else that was up in the air in early eighties London is all over Red Roses. With each album, they breathed out more of their influences onto record, but those influences were always there. Around Grace With God, even if not before, to think of the songs the Pogues in a diddly dee ghetto is to miss their point completely.

There is an Irish folk music and a dash of UK punk influencing the Pogues of 83-85, but it's got a whole lot of living in there. I think there's a lot of richness to be explored and discovered in investigating a lot of the seminal artists way outside the "Irish" side of things who influenced the Pogues.

And those who ran with that influence actually. I think life's too short to listen to Flogging Molly.

[James]

"I met a gin soaked, barroom queen in Memphis,
She tried to take me upstairs for a ride,
She had to heave me right across her shoulder,
Cause i just can't seem to drink you off my mind"

Those lyrics (Jagger/Richards) could be dropped straight into any number of MacGowan's songs on any albums. Very traditionally Poguesy i'd say.

When he performed the song with Republic Of Loose, Shane sang the first verse as

"I met her in a sleazy bar in Galway
She had to try to take me upstairs for a ride (gypsy queen!)
She mighta had to sling me right across her shoulder
Cause I just can't seem to drink her off my mind"

and later...

"I had to go back to Woodstock, got my mickey
I had to fix up in my dick for sure
Now that stuff has really hit me over
I don't need a honky tonk women any more"

[lavabe]

And those who ran with that influence actually. I think life's too short to listen to Flogging Molly.

ok i think this discussion comes to an end....i`m unable to answer all these aspects, details of what is irish folk all about or not and so on...it´s just boring. i´m not a big fan of pure irish folk music and I didn´t read any encyclopedia about it and i`m not interested in....it´s something for theoreticians. I just love music....music from the last 80 years or so from rare old swing, calypso, ska, rocksteady records over the very beginning of electronical music from the 50s 60s over punk/post punk/new wave/no wave to great stuff from nowadays and so on and so on.
i make my own internet podcast, made a pogues special 3 years ago where i said for example that the pogues where much more than a irishfolkpunkdrunkband.
so ...i don´t wanna discuss details and don´t wanna reproach someone with mistakes he/she made in a quote. we are all not perfect.
as far as i can see - and I say this again - NOONE ever said here the pogues were an irish folk band. noone said they had no other influences in their early songs or performances. of course they had and that´s what it made it so new, so fresh, so diversified, so outstanding.
what I said (and I think that´s what dsweeney wanted to say at least) is that in my opinion the irish folk mixed with the punk ATTITUDE was the main influence in the beginning (several irish folk trad. on "rfm" and more on the first single b-sides) . nothing more nothing less. if this doesn`t count as an argument....then end of.

me, heiko - lavabe - from berlin/germany.