How Come & The Pogues musical direction

[Kilmichael]

Thanks Mick for the all the quotes which pretty much rests my case. To latterly claim the Pogues were ALWAYS some kind of musical free for all that played all kinds of world music is historical revisionism. The name of the fuckin' group was Pogue Mahone for God's sake, anglicised from the gaelic Pog mo thoin. This was coincidence ? There is far too much arse kissing going on here and it seems everybody is entitled to an opinion except me.
I'm not talking about Shane's studio albums so that's irrelevant . I'm talking about the Pogues as they were in their early days. Like any musical people they will play all manner of stuff in rehearsals, soundchecks etc. The Straight to hell soundtrack was just that, a soundtrack and produced great stuff like " Rake... " and " Grace...". With the Poguetry ep they had already tried other things. But I am talking about the first two albums. How anybody can listen to " Rum..." and not hear Irish music is beyond me, ludicrous in fact. Country ? " Jesse james " maybe and the fiddle break on " Dirty..." but it hardly makes it Willie Nelson. This is utter fuckin' nonsense.
Next you'll be saying when Joe Strummer wrote "White riot", he was really interested in doing "Overpowered by funk" all along. He wasn't. The Clash EVOLVED into what they became but they WERE a PUNK band. Essentially three things happened with the Pogues.Shanes' drink/ drugs intake got too much for the band to function. As a result he lost focus on his original vision for the band. At which point the lunatics took over the asylum. Unfortunately the price of democracy. Suddenly the side-men decided they were ALL Bob Dylan and wanted their share of the royalties.Fine musicians that they were ( are ), Shane's writing was what set the Pogues apart from other bands. A true genius. Thankfully we have the first three albums to cherish.The others have their moments for sure but the spirit of the original work was gone.

I really can't be bothered to go through a point by point arguement about your view, which of course you are perfectly entitled to, but to respond to a few points:

"they will play all manner of stuff in rehearsals, soundchecks etc" - True, but the tracks Phil was referring to - All Tomorrow's Parties etc. - weren't just played in rehearsals, soundchecks etc. They were performed live frequently as part of the band's early set - the Pogues were never as one dimensional live as you are making them out to be.

"How anybody can listen to " Rum..." and not hear Irish music is beyond me" - I don't recall anybody actually saying that? It's just that some of us hear a bit more than that...

"Suddenly the side-men..." - Side-men?! Why not just label them all as session musicians and have done with it? I'd be interested to know when you started listening to the Pogues. I've noticed a lot of people who got into Shane through his 2 solo albums and then discoveredthe Pogues seem to have this view that Shane is the "real" genius within the band. It's not an opinion I remember hearing much back in 1985...

And I love the way you make out Phil doesn't know what he's talking about becasue he "only joined when they did Rum..." (ignoring the fact he produced the b-side of Sally Mac 6 months earlier, of course). When exactly did you join the Pogues, to speak with such authority?

And don't swear so much... it's not fuckin big and it's not fuckin clever.

[RICHB]

Thanks Mick for the all the quotes which pretty much rests my case. To latterly claim the Pogues were ALWAYS some kind of musical free for all that played all kinds of world music is historical revisionism. The name of the fuckin' group was Pogue Mahone for God's sake, anglicised from the gaelic Pog mo thoin. This was coincidence ? There is far too much arse kissing going on here and it seems everybody is entitled to an opinion except me.
I'm not talking about Shane's studio albums so that's irrelevant . I'm talking about the Pogues as they were in their early days. Like any musical people they will play all manner of stuff in rehearsals, soundchecks etc. The Straight to hell soundtrack was just that, a soundtrack and produced great stuff like " Rake... " and " Grace...". With the Poguetry ep they had already tried other things. But I am talking about the first two albums. How anybody can listen to " Rum..." and not hear Irish music is beyond me, ludicrous in fact. Country ? " Jesse james " maybe and the fiddle break on " Dirty..." but it hardly makes it Willie Nelson. This is utter fuckin' nonsense.
Next you'll be saying when Joe Strummer wrote "White riot", he was really interested in doing "Overpowered by funk" all along. He wasn't. The Clash EVOLVED into what they became but they WERE a PUNK band. Essentially three things happened with the Pogues.Shanes' drink/ drugs intake got too much for the band to function. As a result he lost focus on his original vision for the band. At which point the lunatics took over the asylum. Unfortunately the price of democracy. Suddenly the side-men decided they were ALL Bob Dylan and wanted their share of the royalties.Fine musicians that they were ( are ), Shane's writing was what set the Pogues apart from other bands. A true genius. Thankfully we have the first three albums to cherish.The others have their moments for sure but the spirit of the original work was gone.

Ps Joe Strummer was influenced by the Sex Pistols amongst other musical influences such as regae etc etc. PUNK is a word that was created by people who again wanted to lable what they where listening to/selling (delete where aplicable)

[dsweeney]

I " got into " the Pogues when " Rum.." came out so ok, I wasn't aware of them from the off. So shoot me. It doesn't alter the fact that in their RECORDED incarnation ( as opposed to very early ones ), at the outset they played Irish traditional folk music with attitude and fire, for younger audiences. Correct me if I'm wrong but if you check your copy of " Red roses for me ", in the first four tracks they do covers of " The auld triangle " and " Waxies' dargle ". The album goes on to feature " Poor Paddy", " Dingle regatta" and " Kitty ". Of course, it was the rest of the world's fault for not realising the Pogues were really a jazz fusion/ cajun/ calypso band with a bent for middle eastern world music all along !!!
And another thing. This talk of journalists going for the " drunken Paddy stereotype " is utter BOLLOCKS Phil ! Are you kiddin' me or wha' ? By your own admission you had a drink problem in your time in the Pogues, Shane we all know about, Spider, Terry.... And then YOU complain about stereotypes ? Ridiculous. Might I remind you about the Pogues debut album. The center piece and certainly on of the standout tracks is called " Streams of whiskey ". Contemporary b-sides included " Whiskey your the devil " and " Repeal of the licensing laws ". There is barely a song on the album that doesn't reference drink in some form or other. Music " journalists " may be only slightly above rats with syphillus on the evolutionarly scale but you can't blame in this instance. The Pogues traded on drink and good times/ bad times. We, as Irish people DO drink too much. It's a fact. Not EVERYBODY, but most do. Irish people can't do anything but it involves drink. Every social event imaginable revolves around drink. From weddings to " wakes " and everything in between. " The cadillac stood by...our first taste of whiskey...ancient IRISH history.."
As for swearing too much, well, I think you're into the wrong band mate.

[RICHB]

I " got into " the Pogues when " Rum.." came out so ok, I wasn't aware of them from the off. So shoot me. It doesn't alter the fact that in their RECORDED incarnation ( as opposed to very early ones ), at the outset they played Irish traditional folk music with attitude and fire, for younger audiences. Correct me if I'm wrong but if you check your copy of " Red roses for me ", in the first four tracks they do covers of " The auld triangle " and " Waxies' dargle ". The album goes on to feature " Poor Paddy", " Dingle regatta" and " Kitty ". Of course, it was the rest of the world's fault for not realising the Pogues were really a jazz fusion/ cajun/ calypso band with a bent for middle eastern world music all along !!!
And another thing. This talk of journalists going for the " drunken Paddy stereotype " is utter BOLLOCKS Phil ! Are you kiddin' me or wha' ? By your own admission you had a drink problem in your time in the Pogues, Shane we all know about, Spider, Terry.... And then YOU complain about stereotypes ? Ridiculous. Might I remind you about the Pogues debut album. The center piece and certainly on of the standout tracks is called " Streams of whiskey ". Contemporary b-sides included " Whiskey your the devil " and " Repeal of the licensing laws ". There is barely a song on the album that doesn't reference drink in some form or other. Music " journalists " may be only slightly above rats with syphillus on the evolutionarly scale but you can't blame in this instance. The Pogues traded on drink and good times/ bad times. We, as Irish people DO drink too much. It's a fact. Not EVERYBODY, but most do. Irish people can't do anything but it involves drink. Every social event imaginable revolves around drink. From weddings to " wakes " and everything in between. " The cadillac stood by...our first taste of whiskey...ancient IRISH history.."
As for swearing too much, well, I think you're into the wrong band mate.

This is a wind up isnt. B@stard and I fell for it as well. Very funny

[philipchevron]

This talk of journalists going for the " drunken Paddy stereotype " is utter BOLLOCKS Phil ! Are you kiddin' me or wha' ? By your own admission you had a drink problem in your time in the Pogues

Oh my Gawd!!! I forgot all about that! What an ass I am.

So, yes, in the light of this, I have to say you were right all along, carry on, no harm done, nothing more to see here folks........................end of.

[RICHB]

This talk of journalists going for the " drunken Paddy stereotype " is utter BOLLOCKS Phil ! Are you kiddin' me or wha' ? By your own admission you had a drink problem in your time in the Pogues

Oh my Gawd!!! I forgot all about that! What an ass I am.

So, yes, in the light of this, I have to say you were right all along, carry on, no harm done, nothing more to see here folks........................end of.

Ohhhhh your drunk your drunk you silly old fool still you cannee see thats a traditional pogues irish album your mother sent to mmmmmmmeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. I thank you

[Kilmichael]

I " got into " the Pogues when " Rum.." came out so ok, I wasn't aware of them from the off. So shoot me. It doesn't alter the fact that in their RECORDED incarnation ( as opposed to very early ones ), at the outset they played Irish traditional folk music with attitude and fire, for younger audiences. Correct me if I'm wrong but if you check your copy of " Red roses for me ", in the first four tracks they do covers of " The auld triangle " and " Waxies' dargle ". The album goes on to feature " Poor Paddy", " Dingle regatta" and " Kitty ". Of course, it was the rest of the world's fault for not realising the Pogues were really a jazz fusion/ cajun/ calypso band with a bent for middle eastern world music all along !!!
And another thing. This talk of journalists going for the " drunken Paddy stereotype " is utter BOLLOCKS Phil ! Are you kiddin' me or wha' ? By your own admission you had a drink problem in your time in the Pogues, Shane we all know about, Spider, Terry.... And then YOU complain about stereotypes ? Ridiculous. Might I remind you about the Pogues debut album. The center piece and certainly on of the standout tracks is called " Streams of whiskey ". Contemporary b-sides included " Whiskey your the devil " and " Repeal of the licensing laws ". There is barely a song on the album that doesn't reference drink in some form or other. Music " journalists " may be only slightly above rats with syphillus on the evolutionarly scale but you can't blame in this instance. The Pogues traded on drink and good times/ bad times. We, as Irish people DO drink too much. It's a fact. Not EVERYBODY, but most do. Irish people can't do anything but it involves drink. Every social event imaginable revolves around drink. From weddings to " wakes " and everything in between. " The cadillac stood by...our first taste of whiskey...ancient IRISH history.."
As for swearing too much, well, I think you're into the wrong band mate.

The swearing comment was a joke. Sorry for not making it more blindlingly fuckin obvious.

[Fr. McGreer]

Many may not agree with D Sweeney, but he's creating a great discussion/argument and by God this place needs some life! Just don't make it personal D.

Just my tuppence worth, but i reckon the guest " _mick_ " is actually D Sweeney creating his own ally.

[Guest]

Wise words from Fr. McGreer, and reasoned debate can never be a bad thing.

My final thought on this is that, now that dsweeney appears to only be talking about recorded output (nice moving of the goalposts there!), your arguement is completeyl undermined by the b-side of the Pogues very first single. End of?

[Kilmichael]

Wise words from Fr. McGreer, and reasoned debate can never be a bad thing.

My final thought on this is that, now that dsweeney appears to only be talking about recorded output (nice moving of the goalposts there!), your arguement is completely undermined by the b-side of the Pogues very first single. End of?

Sorry, I posted this - forgot to sign in.

[dsweeney]

The earlier part of the Pogues recorded career was traditional Irish folk and they, um, liked a drink or two. "The bleedin' obvious" ? I'm being pilloried for STATING THE BLEEDIN' OBVIOUS. The b-side of the first single I think was " And the band played Waltzing Matilda ", so what's your point exactly ? Are you trying to make out that this is an AUSTRALIAN folk tune and therefore contradicts my argument ? I would be fairly confident that it is the Dubliners version Shane was aware of. " The wild rover ", " Muirsin durkin ", these of course weren't what the Pogues were REALLY about.
Terry Woods, legendary Irish folk musician of various bands prior to joining the Pogues, is on record as saying he joined because he " wanted to play with MacGowan ". He wouldn't have joined some cod spaghetti western / jazz/ pop/ soul group.
If anyone traded on the " drunken Paddy " stereotype then the Pogues themselves did." ..So buy me beer and whiskey.." " give me one more drop of poison " " One summer evening drunk to hell " etc etc. But like I said, those damn fool journos got you all wrong didn't they ? I'm Irish, a huge fan of the Pogues and I drink too much. But I ain't offended by it in the slightest. If the cap fits ! So f yez all anyhoo !

[Kilmichael]

The earlier part of the Pogues recorded career was traditional Irish folk and they, um, liked a drink or two. "The bleedin' obvious" ? I'm being pilloried for STATING THE BLEEDIN' OBVIOUS. The b-side of the first single I think was " And the band played Waltzing Matilda ", so what's your point exactly ? Are you trying to make out that this is an AUSTRALIAN folk tune and therefore contradicts my argument ? I would be fairly confident that it is the Dubliners version Shane was aware of. " The wild rover ", " Muirsin durkin ", these of course weren't what the Pogues were REALLY about.
Terry Woods, legendary Irish folk musician of various bands prior to joining the Pogues, is on record as saying he joined because he " wanted to play with MacGowan ". He wouldn't have joined some cod spaghetti western / jazz/ pop/ soul group.
If anyone traded on the " drunken Paddy " stereotype then the Pogues themselves did." ..So buy me beer and whiskey.." " give me one more drop of poison " " One summer evening drunk to hell " etc etc. But like I said, those damn fool journos got you all wrong didn't they ? I'm Irish, a huge fan of the Pogues and I drink too much. But I ain't offended by it in the slightest. If the cap fits ! So f yez all anyhoo !

No, I wasn't trying to make out that it was an AUSTRALIAN folk tune. I was trying to make out that it is a tune written in the 1970's, by a Scot, and set in an Australian context. That was my point, exactly. And yes, I'm sure Shane was aware of the Dubliners version, but you can play 'God Save The Queen' on a whistle and a box, it doesn't make it a fuckin 'Irish song'.

I'm sorry d, but you're displaying about as much knowledge of 'Irish' music as Fr. Jack's pet brick.

[RICHB]

The earlier part of the Pogues recorded career was traditional Irish folk and they, um, liked a drink or two. "The bleedin' obvious" ? I'm being pilloried for STATING THE BLEEDIN' OBVIOUS. The b-side of the first single I think was " And the band played Waltzing Matilda ", so what's your point exactly ? Are you trying to make out that this is an AUSTRALIAN folk tune and therefore contradicts my argument ? I would be fairly confident that it is the Dubliners version Shane was aware of. " The wild rover ", " Muirsin durkin ", these of course weren't what the Pogues were REALLY about.
Terry Woods, legendary Irish folk musician of various bands prior to joining the Pogues, is on record as saying he joined because he " wanted to play with MacGowan ". He wouldn't have joined some cod spaghetti western / jazz/ pop/ soul group.
If anyone traded on the " drunken Paddy " stereotype then the Pogues themselves did." ..So buy me beer and whiskey.." " give me one more drop of poison " " One summer evening drunk to hell " etc etc. But like I said, those damn fool journos got you all wrong didn't they ? I'm Irish, a huge fan of the Pogues and I drink too much. But I ain't offended by it in the slightest. If the cap fits ! So f yez all anyhoo !

I dont think anyone is saying that irish folk wasnt a massive part of why the pogues came to life and also that certain members didnt join because of the contribution to that music. I just think its a case of their being so much more to it than that. Im not a muscisian but I would imagine that most musicians have so many different influences that it would be only natural to explore all of them and this is what the pogues did. Nobody is saying that they where a world music band. Also in relation to alcohol there has never been any argument from the band that they werent into alcohol however the argument was that the media made out that ALL they where about is booze and that the band where oompletely out of it all the time. There is no way you could proudce material at that level if you where out of it all the time. Later on when Shane lost focus to what was going on he possibly was out of it all the time and it came impossible for the band. I think everyone is agreed that the band did take it too far with the stuff on Peace and Love but tht doesnt mean that right from the off there werent different influences going into the music and coming out of the music.

[philipchevron]

dsweeney's claim that Shane knew "And The Band Played Waltzing Matilda" mainly from "the Dubliners' version' is a telling interjection which reveals more about dsweeney's blinkered view of "Irish traditional music" than it does about Shane MacGowan's familiarity with vast swathes of contemporary and traditional music. Let's not forget the debate in which this person attempted to establish that "Sally Maclennane", for example, is a "trad Irish" song. It beggars belief that MacGowan and the rest of the Pogues would not have known the Eric Bogle original among the numerous recordings of the song.

On the matter of Terry Woods, it is simply a fact that Terry came to Irish music via a love for Appalachian mountain music with a sprinkling of Old Timey and Woody Guthrie. In the 1960s, Terry found Irish music by reversing to the source. To my ears, this lineage characterises every note, every word, of what Terry Woods does as a musician, as a singer, as a writer. Terry's affinity for The Pogues came about because his old friend Frank Murray sensed, correctly as it turned out, that Terry would instantly identify with the backwards-facing route the Pogues had taken towards Irish music.

So, I'll risk spelling it out one more time, safe in the knowledge that the majority of Medusans already know this to be the watertight case. The Pogues are the Pogues not because we play Irish music but because of the elements of our musical palette which are not Irish. That is the source of both our distinction as a band and the universality of our appeal.

[dsweeney]

Show me where I ever said " Sally MacLenanne " was a tradtitional Irish song ? When Philip ? As usual you're taking things out of context to suit your own argument and people are afraid to contradict you. The song was written by Shane. But it is a song in the style of a million other Irish songs written over centuries. Somebody elsewhere said in fact that Shane never wrote an " original " tune in his life.I dont agree with this of course but you can see their point. Lots of Irish " traditionals " use various melodies and airs. Seeing as you revived this I will make one more attempt on this. I would say " White city " is a more tradtional Pogues tune than " Blue heaven ". Most people with a grasp of the English language and even a cursory knowledge of the Pogues and their music would agree with this statement. Not you and your sycophants though.
The hair splitting over " Matilda.." is so much more of your bollocks. Before you divert everybody with your encyclopaediac knowledge of all things Irish and musical, let me remind us of what this stupid and ridiculous argument is about. Your claim that the Pogues were ALWAYS a musical variety show is pathetic. It is an attempt by you, to justify the later forays into all kinds of musical dead ends to make the Pogues a more "diverse" and "interesting" act. The end result was to make them bland.From devastating readings of old Irish songs and sea shanties to pop shite that sounds like Haircut 100. You are attempting historical revisionism of epic proportions. No matter though. People know what the Pogues were about originally and that's the end of that. End of !!