How Come & The Pogues musical direction

[philipchevron]

http://www.mediafire.com/?my3wtihnxnk

Recorded around the time of 'Rum Sodomy & The Lash, i.e. their 2nd album. I can hear nothing in it except pure Irish folk...

Shudda heard it before the edits!

[Kilmichael]

http://www.mediafire.com/?my3wtihnxnk

Recorded around the time of 'Rum Sodomy & The Lash, i.e. their 2nd album. I can hear nothing in it except pure Irish folk...

Shudda heard it before the edits!

Yes, I've always been keen to hear Cait's dirty limerick, but probably for all the wrong reasons!

[Fr. McGreer]

http://www.mediafire.com/?my3wtihnxnk

Recorded around the time of 'Rum Sodomy & The Lash, i.e. their 2nd album. I can hear nothing in it except pure Irish folk...

Shudda heard it before the edits!

That's all very well, but the point all along in this thread is that this is NOT the music that was PUBLISHED for the rest of the world to hear. The music that WAS published created the image that The Pogues were a Punk-folk-Irish hybrid.

[Clash Cadillac]

http://www.mediafire.com/?my3wtihnxnk

Recorded around the time of 'Rum Sodomy & The Lash, i.e. their 2nd album. I can hear nothing in it except pure Irish folk...

Shudda heard it before the edits!

That's all very well, but the point all along in this thread is that this is NOT the music that was PUBLISHED for the rest of the world to hear. The music that WAS published created the image that The Pogues were a Punk-folk-Irish hybrid.

No Fr. McGreer, I believe you have twisted the original statement from dsweeney. The original statement that created all the controversy was

"The original idea of the Pogues was to take Irish folk and traditional music and combine it with a punk or rock beat."

This has nothing to do with what was put out on vinyl or that many of us describe The Pogues as "a band that plays traditional Irish music with a punk attitude". Maybe here in lies the problem that many here are arguing about different things?

[Fr. McGreer]

That's all very well, but the point all along in this thread is that this is NOT the music that was PUBLISHED for the rest of the world to hear. The music that WAS published created the image that The Pogues were a Punk-folk-Irish hybrid.

No Fr. McGreer, I believe you have twisted the original statement from dsweeney. The original statement that created all the controversy was

"The original idea of the Pogues was to take Irish folk and traditional music and combine it with a punk or rock beat."

This has nothing to do with what was put out on vinyl or that many of us describe The Pogues as "a band that plays traditional Irish music with a punk attitude". Maybe here in lies the problem that many here are arguing about different things?

WTF. It has everything to do with what was put out on vinyl. If, as you say, it has nothing to do with it, why was Going To Make My Brown Eyes Blue not recorded and released? Was it because didn't fit the image that was being nurtured?

[Clash Cadillac]

That's all very well, but the point all along in this thread is that this is NOT the music that was PUBLISHED for the rest of the world to hear. The music that WAS published created the image that The Pogues were a Punk-folk-Irish hybrid.

No Fr. McGreer, I believe you have twisted the original statement from dsweeney. The original statement that created all the controversy was

"The original idea of the Pogues was to take Irish folk and traditional music and combine it with a punk or rock beat."

This has nothing to do with what was put out on vinyl or that many of us describe The Pogues as "a band that plays traditional Irish music with a punk attitude". Maybe here in lies the problem that many here are arguing about different things?

WTF. It has everything to do with what was put out on vinyl. If, as you say, it has nothing to do with it, why was Going To Make My Brown Eyes Blue not recorded and released? Was it because didn't fit the image that was being nurtured?

OK, I'm not going argue about what the "debate" was about. Carry on...

[Kilmichael]

That's all very well, but the point all along in this thread is that this is NOT the music that was PUBLISHED for the rest of the world to hear. The music that WAS published created the image that The Pogues were a Punk-folk-Irish hybrid.

No Fr. McGreer, I believe you have twisted the original statement from dsweeney. The original statement that created all the controversy was

"The original idea of the Pogues was to take Irish folk and traditional music and combine it with a punk or rock beat."

This has nothing to do with what was put out on vinyl or that many of us describe The Pogues as "a band that plays traditional Irish music with a punk attitude". Maybe here in lies the problem that many here are arguing about different things?

WTF. It has everything to do with what was put out on vinyl. If, as you say, it has nothing to do with it, why was Going To Make My Brown Eyes Blue not recorded and released? Was it because didn't fit the image that was being nurtured?

Actually, this question does throw an interesting light on things. I'm not sure 'Don't It Make My Brown Eyes Blue' was ever recorded, but 'Me And Bobby McGee' definitely was. As Stan Brennan says "I think Jem was upset that I didn't let 'Me And Bobby McGee' go on the first album. We did it in the studio and I didn't feel it fitted." (Kiss My Arse p. 128). So yes, at least one song was omitted because it didn't 'fit the image', but it was the image being nurtured by the manager, not the band (or at least one of it's founder members).

Isn't that what this whole debate is about - the image of the Pogues versus the reality?

[RICHB]

That's all very well, but the point all along in this thread is that this is NOT the music that was PUBLISHED for the rest of the world to hear. The music that WAS published created the image that The Pogues were a Punk-folk-Irish hybrid.

No Fr. McGreer, I believe you have twisted the original statement from dsweeney. The original statement that created all the controversy was

"The original idea of the Pogues was to take Irish folk and traditional music and combine it with a punk or rock beat."

This has nothing to do with what was put out on vinyl or that many of us describe The Pogues as "a band that plays traditional Irish music with a punk attitude". Maybe here in lies the problem that many here are arguing about different things?

WTF. It has everything to do with what was put out on vinyl. If, as you say, it has nothing to do with it, why was Going To Make My Brown Eyes Blue not recorded and released? Was it because didn't fit the image that was being nurtured?

Actually, this question does throw an interesting light on things. I'm not sure 'Don't It Make My Brown Eyes Blue' was ever recorded, but 'Me And Bobby McGee' definitely was. As Stan Brennan says "I think Jem was upset that I didn't let 'Me And Bobby McGee' go on the first album. We did it in the studio and I didn't feel it fitted." (Kiss My Arse p. 128). So yes, at least one song was omitted because it didn't 'fit the image', but it was the image being nurtured by the manager, not the band (or at least one of it's founder members).

Isn't that what this whole debate is about - the image of the Pogues versus the reality?

I think thats spot on you know. Also our understanding of music and what goes into making a piece of music. We use throw away comments such as folk, punk etc etc but there are so many other things going into music and how it sounds

[philipchevron]

That's all very well, but the point all along in this thread is that this is NOT the music that was PUBLISHED for the rest of the world to hear. The music that WAS published created the image that The Pogues were a Punk-folk-Irish hybrid.

No Fr. McGreer, I believe you have twisted the original statement from dsweeney. The original statement that created all the controversy was

"The original idea of the Pogues was to take Irish folk and traditional music and combine it with a punk or rock beat."

This has nothing to do with what was put out on vinyl or that many of us describe The Pogues as "a band that plays traditional Irish music with a punk attitude". Maybe here in lies the problem that many here are arguing about different things?

WTF. It has everything to do with what was put out on vinyl. If, as you say, it has nothing to do with it, why was Going To Make My Brown Eyes Blue not recorded and released? Was it because didn't fit the image that was being nurtured?

Actually, this question does throw an interesting light on things. I'm not sure 'Don't It Make My Brown Eyes Blue' was ever recorded, but 'Me And Bobby McGee' definitely was. As Stan Brennan says "I think Jem was upset that I didn't let 'Me And Bobby McGee' go on the first album. We did it in the studio and I didn't feel it fitted." (Kiss My Arse p. 128). So yes, at least one song was omitted because it didn't 'fit the image', but it was the image being nurtured by the manager, not the band (or at least one of it's founder members).

Isn't that what this whole debate is about - the image of the Pogues versus the reality?

Whether or not we accept Stan Brennan's version of events, there's no point in spinning his quote. He doesn't say "It didn't fit the image", he says, specifically, that he didn't feel "Me and Bobby McGee" fitted [the album], which is the sort of creative choices record producers make. It is, frankly, laughable to suggest that the Pogues' "image" was being "nurtured by the manager". Brennan never attempted that, Murray got sacked for failing to listen to the band's needs, but he learned early on that there were definite limits to how much "nurturing" the band would accept from him. Our current managers have better things to be doing, like organising our next Farewell tour. However, the Kris Kristofferson song was attempted precisely because it fitted the band's ethos. Cait never sang "Don't It Make My Brown Eyes Blue" well enough in those days for it ever to be a serious contender for the first album.

We're talking about The Pogues here, not frigging Jedward.

[Kilmichael]

Whether or not we accept Stan Brennan's version of events, there's no point in spinning his quote. He doesn't say "It didn't fit the image", he says, specifically, that he didn't feel "Me and Bobby McGee" fitted [the album], which is the sort of creative choices record producers make. It is, frankly, laughable to suggest that the Pogues' "image" was being "nurtured by the manager". Brennan never attempted that, Murray got sacked for failing to listen to the band's needs, but he learned early on that there were definite limits to how much "nurturing" the band would accept from him. Our current managers have better things to be doing, like organising our next Farewell tour. However, the Kris Kristofferson song was attempted precisely because it fitted the band's ethos. Cait never sang "Don't It Make My Brown Eyes Blue" well enough in those days for it ever to be a serious contender for the first album.

We're talking about The Pogues here, not frigging Jedward.

OK, I wrongly interpreted "fitted" as "fitting the image" of what people perceived the band to be about, rather than "fitting the album". I'm going to argue my point remains the same tho -that this debate is all about whether you buy into the "image" of the Pogues as originally playing only 'traditional Irish folk-punk' (as evidenced by their released output) or the "reality" of them always playing more varied music than that (as evidenced by their recorded/performed output).

[philipchevron]

Whether or not we accept Stan Brennan's version of events, there's no point in spinning his quote. He doesn't say "It didn't fit the image", he says, specifically, that he didn't feel "Me and Bobby McGee" fitted [the album], which is the sort of creative choices record producers make. It is, frankly, laughable to suggest that the Pogues' "image" was being "nurtured by the manager". Brennan never attempted that, Murray got sacked for failing to listen to the band's needs, but he learned early on that there were definite limits to how much "nurturing" the band would accept from him. Our current managers have better things to be doing, like organising our next Farewell tour. However, the Kris Kristofferson song was attempted precisely because it fitted the band's ethos. Cait never sang "Don't It Make My Brown Eyes Blue" well enough in those days for it ever to be a serious contender for the first album.

We're talking about The Pogues here, not frigging Jedward.

OK, I wrongly interpreted "fitted" as "fitting the image" of what people perceived the band to be about, rather than "fitting the album". I'm going to argue my point remains the same tho -that this debate is all about whether you buy into the "image" of the Pogues as originally playing only 'traditional Irish folk-punk' (as evidenced by their released output) or the "reality" of them always playing more varied music than that (as evidenced by their recorded/performed output).

Ultimately though, it probably comes down to semantics. There is no doubt whatever, regardless of what certain provocateurs have been insisting, that like most bands, Pogue Mahone [the clue is in the name, fact fans!] drew their stimuli from a wide range of influences and styles, right from the outset. It does not seem at all surprising to me that the "Irish" strain became dominant early on because, like "punk", it was easy to do until you figured out how to do it, at which point its nuances became more interesting than its initial impetus. Because of The Pogues there are now (literally) , hundreds of bands in the world who play "Irish music with a punk attitude" but none of them are The Pogues, or even in the same league, enjoyable though many of them are. But nor have the Pogues ever tried to distance themselves from the "Irish/punk" energy that made the band appealing in the first place.

All I would say, as I have always said, and as all the other Pogues have always said, is that there was, and is, a great deal more to it than that. It's a mistake to assume that work of the order of, say "Fairytale of New York" was not part of the plan from the outset: but first we had to figure out how to play our instruments. Shane's qualities as a superior writer of wit and vision had been apparent since at least 1977 : everyone knew it was only a matter of time before he found a medium to match his aspirations. Lest we forget, it's not really "Irish" or "punk" that defines the Pogues sound, it's both Mac's songwriting and the individual Pogues demographic condition of blow-ins and immigrants to London.

I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting that Irish/Punk or Folk/Punk or whatever crass reduction one cares to apply, was not the Eureka moment of The Pogues, but it's misleading, at best, at this late stage, to accept these definitions of early Pogues as helpful. I can, and will, with equal legitimacy, make the counter-case that Pogues music is a strain of German polka music found almost exclusively on the Texas/Mexico border, but played with a punk attitude. But if that's not what you're hearing when you listen to our music, then fine, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it, as I'm just delighted that people dig it.

[RICHB]

However it still raises the point over image over reality doesnt it. I dont mean in a way that there was a seperate agenda going on by a manager/band member etc etc. I just meant the image that the media or in fact even individuals who listen to the music have created. There are pages on here were people have enquired about a song and Phil, Spider and in the past James have explained to a degree how that song was created. I, personally, have always found it fascinating what influences have gone into individual songs. Even on this thread alone comments on 'Thousands are Sailing', 'Fairytale (Once upon a time in America) and Transmetrapolitan (The Boxer?? ((Im not sure if that one was a joke so apols if it was)). Its kind of ironic that are certain people having a go at Phil for the very fact that he is giving us insight into something that we may have an uneducated fixed idea about.

[FAY]

Our current managers have better things to be doing, like organising our next Farewell tour.

Not to change the subject but USA West Coast I hope!

[Fr. McGreer]

Isn't that what this whole debate is about - the image of the Pogues versus the reality?

YES. But let's not forget that back in the eighties the only way of finding out any info on this new band was via Melody Maker or NME and i used to buy both every week just on the off chance of getting a snippet of info. And guess what that consisted of? When any article or news piece appeared it ALWAYS focused on "the roudy Irish" or "drunken shenanigans" of this new "London Irish Punk Group". There was no internet forums, twatter or facetube. I and many others were fans for nearly 20 YEARS BEFORE this forum even existed. The only contact we had with The Pogues was listening to the first few singles and albums and turning up pissed to gigs because we thought we were cool, JUST LIKE THE BAND. So is it any wonder this debate rages.

When IISFFGWG was realeased and Spanish and Eastern influences surfaced, i certainly did not feel ailienated. The opposite in fact. Turkish Song, Fiesta and Metropolis were among my favourites.

So, i hope i'm not being lumped in with "the provocateurs" purely for joining in in the best debate this ship has seen in a while. Don't forget, to have a debate you have to have opposite views.

[NewJerseyRich]

Below is I think the only version I've ever heard..... I would agree it didn't fit the first album. Then again I don't think Maggie May would either.

I can't think of any successful first albums that contains a recent cover. Recent here being within the prior 10-12 years. I'm sure there is an exception somewhere. The first album for any band is the "statement" album. "This is who we are"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofpi3GH67u4