How Come & The Pogues musical direction

[Fr. McGreer]

"Good night and joy be with you all".

Here here!

And as Shane so eloquently put it..... "Good night, God bless, now fuck off to bed"

[philipchevron]

I've tried to contribute to this thread when it started out and i agreed with Sweeney's views. Then i got caught up in the debate on the technicalities of 'Trad' and 'Public Domain' and argued against his use of the word trad. I have since stayed out of the the pages and pages of bickering and name calling.

However, if i had only read Sweeney's post (2 above), i would have to say he IS EXACTLY CORRECT. I would say that his initial points were being lost in all the too-ing and fro-ing and one-upmanship.

One point though Sweeney, to say "Philip was simply WRONG to say The Pogues were ALWAYS eclectic and diverse..." maybe misunderstanding Philip. Perhaps he means The Pogues were diverse and eclectic in the early days in their own tastes, at the small gigs in pubs or the rehersal room, but Sweeney is CORRECT, the music they put out on record for everyone ELSE to listen to was of ONE genre that was then labelled by the music press as some kind of Irish folk-punk hybrid that appealed to all us Irish kids who grew up in England (and thousands of others) who were sick of listening to their parents Bredan Shine records. The Pogues made Irish music that alienated our parents and because of that we loved it and we played it as loud as we could.
EDIT
As i was typing, Soulfinger re-posted. He is also CORRECT in all he says.
NOW LADS, LET'S JUST HAVE PINT AND FORGET IT

However, it might be of interest to know that Brendan Shine was a big favourite in the Pogues' in-van entertainment as late as 1986. See how multi'-dimensional this gets? Eclectic even. Like Dion Boucicault, our relationship with Paddywhackery (and alcohol) has always been complex, which is why, in my not so humble opinion, we connected with people the way we did. It was not enough to tear up the rules - we had to refuse to supply an alternative rule book too.

[_Mick_]

Mmmm maybe a member of the band could come on and confirm either way ha ha

At your service, RICHB. And three members of the band if you don't mind...

What really interested me about Pogue Mahone, although there was scant evidence of it in the early days, was that they could connect with the whole London-Irish consistency in a big way, that they could somehow reflect the anger and the frustration that people felt growing up Irish in London.
As an Irish person migrating to London, I was very aware of second-generation London-Irish – people whose Irish parents had come over in Forties, Fifties and Sixties. These kids grew up learning Irish dancing and hearing Irish songs on jukeboxes. They needed the physical manifestation of Irishness. They valued the culture, in some ways indiscriminately I’d have to say, and they kept it going.
The Pogues could see that their audience was immigrant Irish or second-generation Irish. They arrived as epiphany for me. They saw the merit of writing both within and against the tradition. – Philip Chevron ("Pogue Mahone - Kiss My Arse", p.92)

There were certain people in Ireland saying we were shit and a travesty we were destroying a great tradition, and there were other people like The Dubliners and Christy Moore saying, ‘thank God – here’s a band that actually revitalising and reinventing a great tradition. That’s how a tradition survives, by growing and mutating. <…> Folk music is an expression of how people feel, and it’s got a long history. It’s the way people passed stories around before books and newspapers. To make something contemporary you need to play it with some kind of contemporary energy. That’s all we were doing.’ – Jem Finer ("Pogue Mahone - Kiss My Arse" p.195)

I do believe we opened up a lot of people to Irish music. – Terry Woods ("Pogue Mahone - Kiss My Arse" p.196)

To me, it was strange that anyone should think that we were doing anything else but advancing Irish music, adding something to the tradition by giving it a kick under itself. All good traditions need to be shaken up a bit now and again. Someone needs to come along, be it in the cinema, literature or music, and say 'this is going in the wrong direction, but I know where it can go'. Shane was very much the person most of all that understood that. – Philip Chevron (in interview with Martin Roddy, 2004)

[RICHB]

All of the above is true but (and there is always a but) there are other styles and influences. An example over on the other thread reference 'thousands are sailing'. Now I would have just (wrongly) thought that was more of a folk song. Phil has explained the musical and lyrical influences and it wasnt. Im sure you could have the same conversation regarding a lot of their songs. Certainly in my mind it jumps out in Rum, Sodomy and the lash onwards but its there from the start

[lavabe]

leave it RICHB we all know that there were other influences too...but without the irish folk and punk influence the band would never exist and this was what the people get interested in from the start because it was new and fresh and exciting...the pogues didn´t get famous because they had country, ska, rock or what ever influences ....i don´t care about images or media but i have my own ears to hear...

[old barney greyheron]

Whoa...dsweeney, you just can't help abusing people, can you...soulfinger's wee story was not boring to me..I like to hear 'life stories'...and he's spot on about your abuse of phil chevron..it was totally out of order...have a word with yersen.

[dsweeney]

But it's perfectly fine for others to abuse me Barney, is it ? Soulfinger ? Phil himself ? And others ?

[Low D]

More to the point, i've never figured what "Transmetropolitan" has to do with "traditional Irish folk" (however we define it)? More of a psycho turbo folk tour-de-force, but i don't hear, say, The Dubliners in there.

[philipchevron]

More to the point, i've never figured what "Transmetropolitan" has to do with "traditional Irish folk" (however we define it)? More of a psycho turbo folk tour-de-force, but i don't hear, say, The Dubliners in there.

well, Paul Simon's "The Boxer" is in there somewhere. Does that count? Too Jewish?

[James]

More to the point, i've never figured what "Transmetropolitan" has to do with "traditional Irish folk" (however we define it)? More of a psycho turbo folk tour-de-force, but i don't hear, say, The Dubliners in there.

A rockabilly version of Transmetropolitan would kick out the jams.

[RICHB]

leave it RICHB we all know that there were other influences too...but without the irish folk and punk influence the band would never exist and this was what the people get interested in from the start because it was new and fresh and exciting...the pogues didn´t get famous because they had country, ska, rock or what ever influences ....i don´t care about images or media but i have my own ears to hear...

Think this is what I meant by read through the posts, the only point anybody made right from the off is thst there were other influences. If it was true that WE All know this then this thread would be about a page long. The only person who suggested that the pogues were some sort of world music band from the off was Mr Sweeney and that was only in his sugestion in that was what Phil, myself and others were trying to say which we were not (well I wasnt I shouldnt really comment for others)

[Kilmichael]

More to the point, i've never figured what "Transmetropolitan" has to do with "traditional Irish folk" (however we define it)? More of a psycho turbo folk tour-de-force, but i don't hear, say, The Dubliners in there.

One point that hasn't been made in this discussion is the fact that, as I understand it, the Pogues were originally conceived with Spider as either lead vocalist or sharing vocal duties with Shane. It's interesting to think how songs such as 'Transmetro', 'Dark Streets' and 'DOT' might have been perceived if sung by him - more Men They Couldn't Hang than Dubliners maybe?

And I for one thought Soulfingers 'life story' post was interesting and well written. Thanks for sharing.

[dsweeney]

leave it RICHB we all know that there were other influences too...but without the irish folk and punk influence the band would never exist and this was what the people get interested in from the start because it was new and fresh and exciting...the pogues didn´t get famous because they had country, ska, rock or what ever influences ....i don´t care about images or media but i have my own ears to hear...

Think this is what I meant by read through the posts, the only point anybody made right from the off is thst there were other influences. If it was true that WE All know this then this thread would be about a page long. The only person who suggested that the pogues were some sort of world music band from the off was Mr Sweeney and that was only in his sugestion in that was what Phil, myself and others were trying to say which we were not (well I wasnt I shouldnt really comment for others)

Jesus wept !! Eh, I think you'll find I said precisely the opposite RICHb. It was others who said The Pogues were always eclectic, not me.
My point about Soulfinger's trip down memory lane was that no matter how nice a bloke Phil may be, it doesn't automatically make him right !!

[dsweeney]

More to the point, i've never figured what "Transmetropolitan" has to do with "traditional Irish folk" (however we define it)? More of a psycho turbo folk tour-de-force, but i don't hear, say, The Dubliners in there.

Yeah, that's right. Banjos and accordions have nothing to do with Irish music and the extended fade-out isn't sped up ceilidh music !
Jeez!! The hairy spherical objects that people will speak in order to defend a position that is simply WRONG is fucking laughable.

But yeah, now that you mention it, the very first time I heard " Transmetropolitan" I said " Wow ! Simon and Garfunkel, right there ! ".
Gimme a faaarkin' break will ye, for God's sake ?

[RICHB]

leave it RICHB we all know that there were other influences too...but without the irish folk and punk influence the band would never exist and this was what the people get interested in from the start because it was new and fresh and exciting...the pogues didn´t get famous because they had country, ska, rock or what ever influences ....i don´t care about images or media but i have my own ears to hear...

Think this is what I meant by read through the posts, the only point anybody made right from the off is thst there were other influences. If it was true that WE All know this then this thread would be about a page long. The only person who suggested that the pogues were some sort of world music band from the off was Mr Sweeney and that was only in his sugestion in that was what Phil, myself and others were trying to say which we were not (well I wasnt I shouldnt really comment for others)

Jesus wept !! Eh, I think you'll find I said precisely the opposite RICHb. It was others who said The Pogues were always eclectic, not me.
My point about Soulfinger's trip down memory lane was that no matter how nice a bloke Phil may be, it doesn't automatically make him right !!

No I know you didnt. What I mean is that the only suggestion that the pogues were some sort of world music band is in your suggestion in that is what myself, Phil and others were trying to say where as none of us stated that. There is a whole difference between Phil stating that 'it was much more elctric than that' to the world music pot pouri band comments you claimed we were making (if that makes sense). No it doesnt make him autmatically right but it doesnt make him automatically wrong either. I think we have all be around here long enough to not just agree with Phil because he's the mesiah or something (not that anyone would have anyway). Anyway hes not the mesiah hes a very naughty Pogue.