The Medusa Fora

what is the tune at the end of Body of an American called? this is an irish traditional, no???

What's meant by "tiny tartanella" in Body of an American?

I was on that poguetry site and they didn't seem to know either. Is it something really obvious that i've overlooked or is there a deeper thing behind it?

This is my first post by the way and if Phillip is on, thanks, and you lads were top class in Belfast, I come from Co. Derry myself and it was a great night.

Tiny Tartanella is one of the boxers who Big Jim Dwyer fights.

My read on it is, Big Jim Dwyer had no problem at all beating the champ in Pittsburgh, but then he got into a fight with a little Italian guy outside the ring at some point and got the shit kicked out of him.

Sorry for sounding stupid, but is Tiny Tartanella a real person, or is it a random name?

Tinker boy wrote:Sorry for sounding stupid, but is Tiny Tartanella a real person, or is it a random name?

Seems like he's fictional.

Anybody any thoughts about what this song is about exactly ? Years ago I just assumed it was the usual " Irish off to Amerikay " type of farewell come all'ya without really listening closer to the lyrics. Also, I assumed the funeral was here in Ireland and the title and opening lines seemed to confirm this.
However, " farewell to New York city boys, to Boston and PA " negate this. I now think it's about an Irish-American guy at the funeral of a distant relative from Ireland who decides that he will visit " the shores where his fathers lay ". The one thing that doesn't quite sit with this line of thinking is if the wake was in the States why would Shane say " the yanks they were within ". That line always struck me as being more of a funeral in Ireland OF an American. Maybe the viewpoint shifts around in the song, who knows. Ialso like the idea maybe of it being the dead man in his coffin who will be going to the shores where his fathers lay and being buried at home in Ireland. That is is the dead man singing farewell. Any thoughts ?

today i saw it from the eyes of a narrator telling the story of jim's wake in the way it might be read in a book. i'm framing the story around the time of the spanish civil war of 1936 and thinking he may of died in battle. there was an irish brigade that was sent to fight for the nationalists. i'm thinking jim was either "drafted" into the war with the irish for not throwing his fights or was sent as an american to fight for the nationalists by powerful corporate individuals who looked to profit from his success and honesty if he'd throw a fight for them (which he never did). at the time of the war there were several american companies that were furnishing the nationalists with supplies (and, in this case, maybe men):

remember, too, that shane is a story teller and that often times there are elements in a story that don't necessarily lend to the plot or story itself (scenery or setting, like a cadillac sitting outside of a house where a wake is being held) and that, in music, some aspects of a story need to be ommitted all together.

~~~~~
we look over a small house in a neighborhood populated by mostly second and third generation irish emigrants somewhere in the northeastern united states. jim was a young irish-american who grew up boxing his way through his short life standing up for himself, his siblings, and his heritage. on this day, a young woman walks by on her way into the home and notices a stalled car sitting out front with a group of american boys sitting inside arguing over the best way to restart their cadillac; each sharing their expert, albeit it juvenile, opinion. "how funny," she thinks to herself, "that of all things to be in my mind it's these boys i'm looking at. i think they remind me of you."

they were still on her mind when she walked into the house and saw the young man laying cold in his casket. the sight shook her back into reality.

so it was that jim had made his way back home to the land he had fallen in love with; the land that welcomed his forefathers only a few short generations before.

it wasn't longer than 15 short minutes that everyone besides her had had their first drop of the night - certainly not their last. she sat smiling alone and laughing with a whiskey in her hand but hardly taking a sip. she smiled at stories that the aunts and uncles told of an ireland that was once free and of the men and women that had fought to keep her that way. stories that they, themselves, had only had glimpses of. she laughed at the jokes the young men in suits told that could make a sailor blush. the women began flirting foolishly and freely with the men they loved but she could only sit back and dream. by early evening every soul in the place was glowing drunk.

at some point in the night a toast was made to the deceased: "farewell and following seas, boy. what else can we say? goodbye to those days in boston and new york when we were young and full o' wonder. you took 'em down, though, jim. each one with a hand right on the button. you took 'em down. each one of them bastards was some kid at school calling you 'er me a mick or some bully telling you to head back to ireland and pick potatoes. each one of 'em was someone who told you you couldn't make it in america and that this place wadn't yours. and each time you showed 'em and told 'em that you was born just as free as they was. to jim!"

stories passed from mouth to ear of jim and his successes and our young heroine listened, memories still fresh in her mind. friends told stories of an almost mythical proportion of a young man whose spirit was just as massive as the stories being told. he was a young man who defied all odds and beat the champion in pittsburgh. he was a young man who, in one round, took down the legend they called "tiny" - a beast of a man who was anything but. they told stories of a boy who had grown up hard and who had fought harder and had never strayed from his path in life. no one ever saw him outside of a ring. he never smoked, never gambled, never found himself in bed with a women he didn't love. never a lie came from his mouth. but there were men much more powerful than he who saw to profit if he'd only take a fall. there were men who would make fortunes if they could only get him to dive. just once. but he never did. and for that, they used their powers to have sent him to the battle fields of spain.

our young woman, alone, with a half full glass in her hand, now sits unnoticed with barely a consiousness to the people and life around her. our lonely young women stares at the ground and repeats the toast in her head, the car full of young and promising men on her mind, and the memory of her own fallen love in her heart. "farewell jim," she thinks to herself. "what else can i say?...." somewhere back in time and on a distant shore, jim is landing and looking forward to a new battle. a new enemy. another victory. surrounded by his brothers in arms, he raises a glass of spanish wine and toasts to the future as the final rosary is prayed for these young replacements. as full of pride and as self assured of victory as he always has been, he toasts to his love and his land. "my heart is in america and one day i'll raise my glass again to you men, to ireland, and to this place and we will ALL make our way back. i'm a free born ban of the usa!" jim drinks and the men cheer, and they all run into battle. few would walk back out.

now kneeling before the coffin of her beloved, our heroine, head in her arms and tears crawling down her face, imagines her and her lover dancing as they did the evening he had asked her to marry him. it had only been a few short months before and in the same house where the same faces had all gathered to wish their grandson, their child, their nephew, their cousin, their brother, their friend, and her love farewell. he had waited until every soul was glowing drunk before he took her by the hand and walked with her to the shore where the ship was waiting to take him away. too poor for a ring, he had gotten down on one knee anyways. they embraced on the shore with only the sound of the lapping tide to dance to. it was the happiest and saddest day of her life.

as the ship sailed away from the sunset and into the night, jim took from his pocket a picture of his beloved. he spoke to it, reassuring himself and her of the promises he made before setting sail. "as the sun sank this morning into the harbour i told you i loved you. i have always loved you. and i always will. and i'll come back to you one day. farewell my love. nothing more can be said but goodbye to your loving eyes that are as blue as the ocean." she watched him sail away, never to see him again.
~~~~~

Smerker wrote:My read on it is, Big Jim Dwyer had no problem at all beating the champ in Pittsburgh, but then he got into a fight with a little Italian guy outside the ring at some point and got the shit kicked out of him.

He fought the champ in Pittsburgh
And he slashed him to the ground
He took on Tiny Tartanella
And it only went one round
He never had no time for reds
For drink or dice or whores
And he never threw a fight
Unless the fight was right
So they sent him to the war

This seems pretty self explanatory to me. He (Jim Dwyer) fought the champ in Pittsburgh and won. He (Jim Dwyer) fought Tiny Tartanella and the fight went for one round (and Jim Dwyer won). Jim Dwyer was a badass boxer.

He didn't take reds (barbiturates), didn't drink, gamble, or whore around. Jim Dwyer was a clean-cut man who didn't indulge in vices.

And he wasn't a crooked fighter. He didn't throw fights (meaning he wouldn't take a payment to lose) unless "the fight was right." I'm no sure how to interpret this other than that he MIGHT be convinced to throw a fight, though not for money, if somehow throwing the fight advanced a cause that Jim Dwyer agreed with.

And being a clean-cut upstanding kinda guy he got sent to The War. He may have been sent as a morale kinda thing (ala Elvis, Glenn Miller, etc) or he may have actually been a combat troop. Either way, at some point Jim died (it's not clear if this happened during The War or some time later). This verse is recollections of Jim Dwyer - possibly (and probably) a eulogy. The other verses at the beginning are a person remembering the funeral - the hearse, the drinking, the stories. The latter verses are this person later (years?) visiting Jim Dwyers grave.

At the end of the narrative we have a person - Jim Dwyer's wife? visiting a grave. This is the scene. And listening back over the first verses this this is remembering the funeral, remembering the eulogy, and talking about these memories with the grave of Big Jim Dwyer.

At least this is MY interpretation of this song. It's certainly more scrutable than A Pair of Brown Eyes.

DzM wrote:He didn't take reds (barbiturates), didn't drink, gamble, or whore around. Jim Dwyer was a clean-cut man who didn't indulge in vices.

Was it reds in the sense of barbiturates he never had no time for? Or was it communists? I've never been entirely sure of the sense, or whether in fact we're meant to be entirely sure...

DzM wrote:And he wasn't a crooked fighter. He didn't throw fights (meaning he wouldn't take a payment to lose) unless "the fight was right."

Listening to what Shane sings, it sounds to me as if it goes: "And he never threw a fight / When the fight was right" (not "Unless the fight was right", as it says on the Medusa lyrics page). Which gives a different sort of nuance. And sort of leads on to him being sent to the war, because presumably he was convinced that conflict was justified.

Looking at (and listening to) the first verse, I'm pretty sure Shane sings the last line as "To the shores where his fathers lay." (Not "To the home..." as it says on Medusa's lyrics page.) This seems to make a lot more sense. Big Jim Dwyer, post mortem, is being repatriated to the land whence his forefathers (and foremothers, possibly) came, to be laid to rest there. In which case, the last two verses can be Big Jim's "love" saying farewell to him at the harbour, and reflecting on his eyes that were "as blue as the water in the bay" as the ship sails away. Maybe she too has gone to Ireland to see him buried, and is now saying farewell as she leaves on the ship returning to Amerikay to carry on her life there. (Though maybe she doesn't leave the USA with him, but simply bids farewell at the harbour as the ship carries his body home.) Possibly the former makes more sense, as she reflects that one day she will come back to him -- maybe when she eventually makes the return trip to be buried alongside him.

Whichever, Big Jim has gone back to the place of his ancestors to be buried. Which gives a poignant irony to the song's title, and to his pride in being "a free born man of the USA".

Mind you, I always reckon we're not really intended to over-analyse works of art.

phro37 wrote:today i saw it from the eyes of a narrator telling the story of jim's wake in the way it might be read in a book. i'm framing the story around the time of the spanish civil war of 1936 and thinking he may of died in battle. there was an irish brigade that was sent to fight for the nationalists. i'm thinking jim was either "drafted" into the war with the irish for not throwing his fights or was sent as an american to fight for the nationalists by powerful corporate individuals who looked to profit from his success and honesty if he'd throw a fight for them (which he never did). at the time of the war there were several american companies that were furnishing the nationalists with supplies (and, in this case, maybe men):

remember, too, that shane is a story teller and that often times there are elements in a story that don't necessarily lend to the plot or story itself (scenery or setting, like a cadillac sitting outside of a house where a wake is being held) and that, in music, some aspects of a story need to be ommitted all together.

~~~~~
we look over a small house in a neighborhood populated by mostly second and third generation irish......................


..............................as the ship sailed away from the sunset and into the night, jim took from his pocket a picture of his beloved. he spoke to it, reassuring himself and her of the promises he made before setting sail. "as the sun sank this morning into the harbour i told you i loved you. i have always loved you. and i always will. and i'll come back to you one day. farewell my love. nothing more can be said but goodbye to your loving eyes that are as blue as the ocean." she watched him sail away, never to see him again.
~~~~~

I really enjoyed reading that, Phro. A nice take on it

Rereading the lyrics I'm going with the following;
The narrator, as youngish man, is outside a house where the funeral wake of a guy called Jim Dwyer is being held. Inside, relatives of his talk of Ireland, where Jim Dwyer will be sent " to the shores where his fathers lay ". The narrator decides then that he himself will set sail for Ireland. The various " fare thee well "s of the chorus are therefore from different perspectives, sometmes from Jim Dwyer in his coffin making " his last trip to the shores...." and later from the narrator, leaving his sweetheart in the harbour.

DzM wrote:

Smerker wrote:My read on it is, Big Jim Dwyer had no problem at all beating the champ in Pittsburgh, but then he got into a fight with a little Italian guy outside the ring at some point and got the shit kicked out of him.

He fought the champ in Pittsburgh
And he slashed him to the ground
He took on Tiny Tartanella
And it only went one round
He never had no time for reds
For drink or dice or whores
And he never threw a fight
Unless the fight was right
So they sent him to the war

This seems pretty self explanatory to me. He (Jim Dwyer) fought the champ in Pittsburgh and won. He (Jim Dwyer) fought Tiny Tartanella and the fight went for one round (and Jim Dwyer won). Jim Dwyer was a badass boxer.

He didn't take reds (barbiturates), didn't drink, gamble, or whore around. Jim Dwyer was a clean-cut man who didn't indulge in vices.

And he wasn't a crooked fighter. He didn't throw fights (meaning he wouldn't take a payment to lose) unless "the fight was right." I'm no sure how to interpret this other than that he MIGHT be convinced to throw a fight, though not for money, if somehow throwing the fight advanced a cause that Jim Dwyer agreed with.

And being a clean-cut upstanding kinda guy he got sent to The War. He may have been sent as a morale kinda thing (ala Elvis, Glenn Miller, etc) or he may have actually been a combat troop. Either way, at some point Jim died (it's not clear if this happened during The War or some time later). This verse is recollections of Jim Dwyer - possibly (and probably) a eulogy. The other verses at the beginning are a person remembering the funeral - the hearse, the drinking, the stories. The latter verses are this person later (years?) visiting Jim Dwyers grave.

At the end of the narrative we have a person - Jim Dwyer's wife? visiting a grave. This is the scene. And listening back over the first verses this this is remembering the funeral, remembering the eulogy, and talking about these memories with the grave of Big Jim Dwyer.

At least this is MY interpretation of this song. It's certainly more scrutable than A Pair of Brown Eyes.

As the song is about an irish american I defo think 'red's' is a turn for not liking communists in this case.

Actually, Jim Dwyer was a real person and both his geography and boxing record are recounted in the song, although he actually went six rounds in his only bout. See http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=541245&cat=boxer

Hope this helps. I was digging into this topic for references to *Body of an American* in the excellent American TV series The Wire, and Big Jim is of course referred to as "the man of wire".

Also of interest regarding The Wire (which may be discussed in this forum but I didn't see in the Search function) are the two deadbeat cops, Pogue and Mahone. For those not familiar, in every episode of the first season, someone walks into a room and yells "Pogue! Mahone!"

First time I heard that I laughed so hard I nearly shit my tapeworm.

maxrad wrote:Also of interest regarding The Wire (which may be discussed in this forum but I didn't see in the Search function) are the two deadbeat cops, Pogue and Mahone. For those not familiar, in every episode of the first season, someone walks into a room and yells "Pogue! Mahone!"

Well, you learn something new every day! Thanks maxrad, now i have to watch the whole first season again.

The Wire search? Lots of discussion here........http://www.pogues.com/forum/search.php?keywords=%22The++wire%22++