The Medusa Fora

philipchevron wrote:

Eric V wrote:

philipchevron wrote:
There is no PC aspect involved in using the casually racist language of the tormentor against him.

Really? I have always thought that racist language is a bad thing, regardless. And given that Shane isn't Vietnamese and you are not an Arab, I guess I would spin that around and say that it puts a racist slant (no pun intended) on a situation that is not inherently racist.

My apologies. There is nothing inherently racist in an American foreign policy which explicitly values American life over Muslim or Vietnamese to the extent even that "we don't do body counts".

I saw a great t-shirt on a guy in the front row at Las Vegas the first night. In a brilliant turnaround of the shifting meaning of the word "Gay", his t-shirt read "HOMOPHOBIA IS GAY"

I don’t think it’s the same one, but Holy Moly do a very similar version that can be found here.

http://www.shotdeadinthehead.com/?cPath=100_20&wx=1003&wy=594


They also get plenty milleage out of Kate Moss as you can see!

Thanks everybody.
Not that Shane is known for beeing Political correct but i think thats why we all love him and the Pogues for saying what they want to say in there songs (and in life). I mean that if you put the lyrics in a bigger conntext then , at least i ,woulden´t think it´s to offensive.
But thats me. And if some of you think´s I´m a racist i can tell you that i support organisations to prevent and stop racism in Sweden.

And let´s be fair. In all wars around the world there´ll allways be FUCKERS on both sides who´ll do bad things and the otherway around to. Remember that WAR allmost allways bring the worst sides of all humans to surfice.

X-cuse my bad spelling and english.

Cheers and thanks again for the awnsers.

Johan

What cute lyrical differences!

Eric V wrote:

philipchevron wrote:
There is no PC aspect involved in using the casually racist language of the tormentor against him.

Really? I have always thought that racist language is a bad thing, regardless. And given that Shane isn't Vietnamese and you are not an Arab, I guess I would spin that around and say that it puts a racist slant (no pun intended) on a situation that is not inherently racist.

Isnt that a bit like saying something like 'Till Death do us part' (seventies show about a london biggot played excellently by Warren Mitchell) is racist because the character is racist when in actual fact the whole thing is very anti rasicst? Im sure people could think of better examples but the point remains the same. Just because you use certain terms in forms of art doesnt mean that the overall message is racist.

RICHB wrote:

Eric V wrote:

philipchevron wrote:
There is no PC aspect involved in using the casually racist language of the tormentor against him.

Really? I have always thought that racist language is a bad thing, regardless. And given that Shane isn't Vietnamese and you are not an Arab, I guess I would spin that around and say that it puts a racist slant (no pun intended) on a situation that is not inherently racist.

Isnt that a bit like saying something like 'Till Death do us part' (seventies show about a london biggot played excellently by Warren Mitchell) is racist because the character is racist when in actual fact the whole thing is very anti rasicst? Im sure people could think of better examples but the point remains the same. Just because you use certain terms in forms of art doesnt mean that the overall message is racist.

I read an interview with Warren Mitchell recently and he said he was approached once by a lad in the street in London and he said to him "i love the way you take the p**s out of them blacks in that show" to which he replied "to be honest we are taking the p**s out of people like you!"

mats wrote:I was just listening to a 1984 Peel Session and in this version Shane is singing "raping gooks" This was broadcasted in April 84 and before "Boys" was released as a single so I guess it was ok to sing this version. The F word however in the line " we broke his fucking balls" was not sung. Otherwise it was not censored.

What are the TV/Radio censor rules today in UK? When The Pogues did Boys From The County Hell on The Tube in 1985 Shane just mumbles all the curse words. Would the original version be allowed on TV/Radio today?

I think in the recent book (not bragging that i have it or anything) it says that Boys was not played in the Peel Session, although was recorded, as the bbc flipped when they heard it. Can anyone confirm this?

I was just about to post and say, I have a boot of the April 84 Peel Session, which is utterly brilliant, and "Boys..." isn't on it. And now I'm annoyed cos I haven't got it. I'm guessing it wasn't broadcast.

The tracks I have from that session are:

Streams Of Whiskey
Whiskey, You're The Devil [storming version!!]
Danny Boy
Greenland Whale Fisheries
Sally MacLennane
The Auld Triangle
Navigator

I think Navigator was called "The Navigator" at that point, before the "The" was dropped.

And now I must find the mysterious missing track... hmmm...

nboldock wrote:I was just about to post and say, I have a boot of the April 84 Peel Session, which is utterly brilliant, and "Boys..." isn't on it. And now I'm annoyed cos I haven't got it. I'm guessing it wasn't broadcast.

The tracks I have from that session are:

Streams Of Whiskey
Whiskey, You're The Devil [storming version!!]
Danny Boy
Greenland Whale Fisheries
Sally MacLennane
The Auld Triangle
Navigator

I think Navigator was called "The Navigator" at that point, before the "The" was dropped.

And now I must find the mysterious missing track... hmmm...

A lot of radio sessions circulates around fans and who knows if the dates or hosts are correct all the time. You can find the ones known here: http://www.pogueslive.com/pogues/1983-84.htm

My copy of the April 84 Peel Session has got the following tracks: Streams Of Whiskey / Boys From The County Hell / The Auld Tiangle / Greenland Whale Fisheries and it sounds like they are from the same session.

There´s one from 1985 that is often labeled as a French radio session but this is wrong, it´s Swedish and probably from a radio broadcast in summer/fall 85. I think this broadcast is the one you can find on the "Greenland Whale Fisheries" bootleg.

Danny Boy is my favourite radio session track. Too bad it never ended up as a b-side or got released. Should be a strong candidate to the Treasure Chest.

I dont think the old saying 'raping gooks in vietnam' is racist anyway. If it was 'raping the stupid gooks in vietnam' that would be racist for assuming all the gooks are stupid which im sure just isnt that case. Pakis, gooks, the welsh, gippos, puffters, the obese no matter what you are theres always going to be some clever ones of your kind!

I was looking at the lyrics for BFTCH in the Red Roses For Me cd booklet, and the lyric "my brother earned his medals raping gooks in Vietnam" sounds nothing like what Shane sings on the actual track.
Is there a story behind this?

Johnny Come Lately wrote:I was looking at the lyrics for BFTCH in the Red Roses For Me cd booklet, and the lyric "my brother earned his medals raping gooks in Vietnam" sounds nothing like what Shane sings on the actual track.
Is there a story behind this?

On the album the song reads, "my brother earned his medals at Mai Lai in Viet Nam".

Mai Lai was a massacre, basically a war crime that US soldiers perpetrated, so to say he earned his medals at Mai Lai, is on the one hand a bit more subtle, yet it conveys the same meaning...and I like it better because being less blunt makes a listener think more.

I too, have seen that lyric printed, but I have not heard that version. I am sure it is out there. I wonder if it was changed to appease someone's (a record executive's?) delicate sensibilities. But I think the Mai Lai reference is an improvement, so I don't think so.

philipchevron wrote:Somewhere inside every steaming pile of crap lies the possibility of finding a truffle.

Well put. Describing what some racist bastard has done by using racist language is not being racist, not using the figurative words would be cowardish and maybe even approving.. Its all about the context.

Anyway I don´t think talking about "raping gooks" or "My Lai" have much difference in content. They both work just as well in the song, the original lyrics are better for the simple reason that they are original, that´s the way Shane meant it. Its just another example of how hypocrite being PC is.

And let's not forget, despite the ramblings and rantings of the American Right about "conspiracy" and "false chrges", that the landscape has not greatly improved:
-----------------------------------

CHICAGO (Reuters) - A U.S. soldier convicted by a military court in the gang rape and murder of a 14-year-old Iraqi girl and the killing of her family was sentenced to 110 years in prison on Saturday, the Army said.

Pvt. Jesse Spielman, 22, received a dishonorable discharge after being found guilty of four counts of murder, rape, conspiracy to commit rape and housebreaking with the intent to commit rape by a military court at Ft. Campbell, Kentucky.

Spielman was one of five soldiers charged in the March 2006 attack on the family in Mahmudiya, south of Baghdad. Three soldiers previously pleaded guilty in the case and were given sentences ranging from five to 100 years.

Spielman, the court found, participated in the planning of the attack as the soldiers drank whiskey and played cards, and acted as a lookout.

At the start of the weeklong hearing, Spielman pleaded guilty to wrongful touching of a corpse, arson, obstructing justice and violating rules against drinking alcohol in a war zone.

Sgt. Paul Cortez and Spc. James Barker were sentenced to 90 years and 100 years in prison, respectively.

The accused ringleader, former Pvt. Steven Green, was discharged from the Army for a "personality disorder" and awaits trial in a civilian court. He has pleaded not guilty and faces a possible death sentence.

Cortez and Barker, who both testified at Spielman's court-martial, admitted raping the girl, Abeer Qassim al-Janabiat, and said Green shot her parents and younger sister. Green then raped the girl and killed her, and they poured kerosene over her body and set it on fire in an attempt to hide evidence of the crime, they testified.

Another soldier, Pvt. Bryan Howard, admitted to monitoring radio traffic and was given a five-year sentence.

The killings outraged Iraqis and ratcheted up tension in the war zone.

not quite sure if this is the right place to put it or not, and i've sorta looked through the forums for the answer to this question, but i haven't found it just yet

the "five green bottles" that is described in the lyrics, does anyone know what KIND of bottles those are? i know they're liquor bottles, but what sort of liquor?

thanks!

I always assumed it to be beer, but I don't know for sure. 15 bottles more of anything much stronger would be OTT, even by Shane's standards.