Why does MacGowan dislike Hell's Ditch

**Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:40 am**

Not the Pogues best work, this album found the band turning towards a more global prespective concerning the direction of the music, Thailand and Spain being the most popular places. Rain Street, Summer In Siam, Sayonara, and Lorca's Novena to name a few found MacGowan in top form. I think by this time, MacGowan didn't like the fusion "shite" direction the band was going, which was totally unfair (acid house anyone)

**Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:02 am**

Wow. All over the place there, but in line with what a lot of other people said. I liked it a lot, and the first half or so in particular. At first I thought it was under-produced, but as I listened a few more times I realized it is about perfect.

**Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:25 am**

If memory serves correct Shane's main complaint wasn't with the album itself but with the final track selection. He wanted tracks such as 'Pinned Down', 'Aisling' 'Curse of Love' etc. on it as opposed to what he described as 'some real dogs' (although he didn't name the actual tracks!). He claimed at the time Jem shared this view and that the two of them were very unhappy with the track selection, but how true that is is anybody's guess.

So I don't think it was the overall sound or feel of the album he didn't like, just the fact that certain tracks were left off.

**Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:26 am**

Kilmichael wrote:If memory serves correct Shane's main complaint wasn't with the album itself but with the final track selection. He wanted tracks such as 'Pinned Down', 'Aisling' 'Curse of Love' etc. on it as opposed to what he described as 'some real dogs' (although he didn't name the actual tracks!). He claimed at the time Jem shared this view and that the two of them were very unhappy with the track selection, but how true that is is anybody's guess.

So I don't think it was the overall sound or feel of the album he didn't like, just the fact that certain tracks were left off.

This complaint about the track selection seems to be so commonly held a view within The Pogues that I can't help wondering just who chose the tracks - Frank Murray? Joe Strummer? Warner and his Brothers?

In Shane's case, any opposition to a decision was always against the royal "They". They hated my songs, they wanted to go in this or that direction, they wouldn't let me have my own way...............and I still don't know who, specifically, they are or were. Neither, I suspect, does Shane.

**Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:14 pm**

philipchevron wrote: This complaint about the track selection seems to be so commonly held a view within The Pogues that I can't help wondering just who chose the tracks - Frank Murray? Joe Strummer? Warner and his Brothers?

Phil, I know in the past you've been reluctant to reveal too much about the inner workings of the Pogues, but what was the process for finalising the track selection of an album? Almost inevitably there'd be more songs recorded than the 40 minutes that was standard for 'long players' - and this certainly seems to have been the case for 'Hell's Ditch' - how were they whittled down?

The 'they' that Shane often talks about are also often blamed for the band being 'too democratic', i.e. not agreeing with him!

**Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:33 pm**

Kilmichael wrote:
how were they whittled down?

I don't pretend to know, which is why I asked out loud. I did the running order of IISFFGWG, though it seems to have been retrospectively attributed to Kirsty and was, in any event, mangled by the Brothers Warner in their vandalistic positioning of the bonus tracks on the CD version. On Peace and Love, I had a lengthy and testy telephone argument in the middle of the night with Brother Rob Dicken, after which I just stayed the hell out of it. In both senses of the word. Dicken, clearly disappointed that the album had no FoNY moment, chose to take the view that "Lorelei" and/or "Blue Heaven" had somehow elbowed out a superior MacGowan song, which may well have been the line Mac fed him, or at least implied. Rob Dicken never did get to learn just how close he came to having to explain away "Contact Yourself" to the elder Brothers. (Just for the record, Shane supplied no other songs for Peace And Love, and I have argued strongly elsewhere that songs like "Pinned Down" should not have been excised from Hell's Ditch, but by that point, I appear to have been effectively removed from the selection process, by accident or design.)

**Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:42 pm**

Interesting stuff Phil, and thanks for taking the time to reply. At least it looks like, happily, things are in your hands a bit more now...

**Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:18 pm**

I remember Shane commenting on the choice of tracks for Hell's Ditch in Vox magazine back in November 1990. That particular part of the interview went as follows:
"I'm musically frustrated because even on this album, where Joe was great and the vibe was great, people couldn't understand what I was doing, where me and Jem were going. There were songs that I wrote that I thought were brilliant and they were kicked off the album. Same with some of Jem's songs. Pinned Down was a great song I wrote. And Jem's song, The Curse Of Love- a country rock masterpiece. Nobody stood up for either of them and there are inferior songs on the LP, real duffers."
Like what?
"No I aint saying but they're there. Same with the last LP. We're both very pissed off, Jem and me."
Why do you think that's happening?
"Cos the rest of them leave a lot to be desired in the imagination department."
He then goes on to say:
"This is rock and roll. It aint fucking classical music. I think it makes absolutely noi sense for a group that has the values that I put forward to wank out. I think we're wanking out and I don't like it."
Wanking out? Is that the same as selling out?
"Wanking out is the term I prefer to use."
So it's your vision that's at stake?
"Look, I've gone out of my way to bust my balls to meet them half way and they haven't gone out of their way to meet me halfway- with the exception of Jem. Me and Jem started this. And Spider. We had the right attitude. Still have. Well, Spider changes from day to day but when he has the right attitude, right, it's the right attitude. That's the way I see it and I've had a lotta time lately to think about this."
You're obviously very disillusioned with everything. Are you saying you've outgrown the Pogues?
"Yea"

**Thu Jun 29, 2006 2:36 am**

The album was all over the place. It's very clear the band was growing apart, and couldnt bring it back together in the studio. I think the only thing they all had in common was a love of traditional irish music. Once they had done that... well, there wasn't much else to do. I do think they succeeded very well on the spanish tracks, thought the thai tracks leave something to be desired.

**Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:00 pm**

Personally, I think it's a really good album. However, I think Shane is correct in his view that songs like Curse Of Love should have been included. I'd have left off the two Terry Woods tracks myself.

**Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:46 pm**

In many ways it's my favorite Pogues album. Shane's lyrics are staggering good on many of the tracks, at least as good as his best stuff from Rum....and IISFFGWG, and far better than they tended to be on P & L, and while his voice is clearly shot to hell the arrangements are top-notch, with dub-head Strummer upping the bass quotient significantly (that's really shown to great advantage on the cd remaster). I personally loved it when the band extended their palette away from the Irish stuff into other territories, as their uniqueness as a band meant that whatever style they played would have their own, totally original stamp on it. Mood-wise, it's a bit of a glum record, but as a piece of music and a work of art, it's up there with the best.

**Fri Jun 30, 2006 3:24 pm**

Hell's ditch is crap. The worst Pogues album before Shane's exit (I fell that afterc that the music changed completely). Even Peace and Love was better, if only slightly. And although there are some good songs, Rain Street, Sayonara, Sunnyside of the Street. The rest of it is pretty useless to be honest, and I can say that because I think P Chevron and everyone else have better things to worry about than what I think of an album from 15 years ago but there you go. IMO best album without doubt Red Roses, although other fans opinions would probably eventually force me to say IISFFGWG. Hell's ditch is the complete other end of the scale there i'm afraid.

**Fri Jun 30, 2006 8:45 pm**

nah you have a right to hate it
but the "good" songs you picked are in fact the shittiest songs imaginable

clearly hell's ditch is one of the best pogues songs of all time
up there with old main drag
waltzing matilda
turkish song
and sit down by the fire

**Sat Jul 01, 2006 1:41 am**

On the last two posts.... Lorca's Novena is one of the most beautiful songs the Pogues ever did. I'll likely have words from that song on my grave stone.

**Sat Jul 01, 2006 2:07 pm**

chatterbox wrote:Hell's ditch is crap. The worst Pogues album before Shane's exit (I fell that afterc that the music changed completely). Even Peace and Love was better, if only slightly. And although there are some good songs, Rain Street, Sayonara, Sunnyside of the Street. The rest of it is pretty useless to be honest, and I can say that because I think P Chevron and everyone else have better things to worry about than what I think of an album from 15 years ago but there you go. IMO best album without doubt Red Roses, although other fans opinions would probably eventually force me to say IISFFGWG. Hell's ditch is the complete other end of the scale there i'm afraid.

I disagree with every point you've made so far, but I'll defend to the death your right to make them.

Why does MacGowan dislike Hell's Ditch

Why does MacGowan dislike Hell's Ditch

Hell's Ditch

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