The Medusa Fora

Hello everyone,

I'm a student of history at the University of Cologne, Germany and I'm currently writing my final paper on the Pogues and Nation Branding.

Nation Branding is first and foremost a theory which is applied as a method by states and governments. Nowadays nearly every state is involved in Nation Branding campaigns and there are whole marketing agencies that are devoted to issues surrounding questions of how to improve images and reputations of nations. The main effect these campaigns are meant to have is a stimulation of the economy and tourism in the respective country. It is important to note that Nation Branding campaigns - in the end - always look for empowerment of the actors, i.e. the states being involved. In practice, that means to stage particular features of a Nation, which are usually to be found within the culture of a country.
For example, some of you might have heard of the Cool Britannia campaign, which was initiated by the Blair-administration at the end of the nineties in the course of the Britpop revival around Oasis and the Spice Girls. In Germany at the moment, there is this campaign called "Land der Ideen" ("Land of Ideas") that tries to improve on how German ingenuity is viewed in the world.

In historic discourse there has been some innovative contemplation to make use of Nation Branding to overcome the diffusions in the field of cultural diplomacy, a subdiscipline of international history (focusing on culture as a means of mediation between states). With the help of the concept, historians try to unravel the questions how/why images of nations were created, how/why they changed through certain cultural aspects, who created them, to what means they were created and who finally profited from these images being created.

For my thesis, after many sleepless nights , I am now considering the Pogues as a non-governmental actor who has in many ways shaped the image of Ireland, the Irish diaspora and the notion of Irishness not only in London, but all around the world. I am arguing that the songs and performances, either on or off-stage have had a crucial impact on how the Emerald Isle, the widespread Irish community and their methods of identity formation are being perceived and viewed in the world.

I know that it wasn't all the bandmates' intention to be perceived as Irish, but the problem is, that especially Shane's behavior has always been eagerly picked up by the media as the stereotype of the (drunken) stage Irishman, a little bit comic and tragic at the same time. Hence there is quite a lot of evidence, that the Pogues are linked to the concept of Irishness, in one way or the other. Or am I completely loosing track here, and the band must rather be located in an English context?

At the moment I am analysing the songs of the band. I am reading all interviews and books that I can find. And I am watching videos of the band. I am looking for evidence giving feedback to my hypothesis and I am looking for answers to the questions that I have formulated.

Everyone who ever wrote on a piece like that knows that it can get hard at times. In German we have that saying, that you no longer see the wood because of all the trees. Well, and that's exactly how I feel at the moment.
Hence, I would be glad for any comment, any advice and definitely any of your PERSONAL VIEWS that you have on this. I am looking forward to your opinions, from the fans, and if possible from the band members. How would you say, have the Pogues contributed to a Nation Brand of Ireland? Do the Pogues remind you of Ireland or what other association do they recall?

All the best to you all!

blueboxlife wrote:
I know that it wasn't all the bandmates' intention to be perceived as Irish, but the problem is, that especially Shane's behavior has always been eagerly picked up by the media as the stereotype of the (drunken) stage Irishman, a little bit comic and tragic at the same time. Hence there is quite a lot of evidence, that the Pogues are linked to the concept of Irishness, in one way or the other. Or am I completely loosing track here, and the band must rather be located in an English context?

Unless you propose, as part of your thesis, to argue that Irishness is synonymous with drunkenness just because the stereotype says so, I would counsel a degree of reflection in this area. The "concept of Irishness" is neither here nor there, really - it's whatever a person who considers himself Irish or Irish-ish says it is at any given time - and among other things The Pogues achieved was the band's refusal to conform to anyone else's view of what Irish is, least of all those of State or semi-state bodies on either side of the Irish sea. In the mid-80s to early 90s, we emitted an unwelcome smell to both liberal, progressive Brits who were repelled by their own country's easy stereotype of hard-drinking Paddy and modern Irish natives who believed the time had come to show a more anodyne, bland and yes, marketable brand of Irishness on the world stage than that which the Pogues appeared to be peddling.

The history of Irish art is full of examples of playwrights, painters, writers and musicmakers undermining easy stereotypes by, in part, owning the stereotype and reshaping it to new purpose with a view to subversion. That the Irish are simultaneously considered exceptionally stupid and capable of the world''s greatest literature, like some leaking simian savants, may be the greatest gift the tastemakers of the 19th century ever gave the Irish artist. Think not? See Wilde, Shaw, Boucicault just for starters.

On your other point, the Pogues resigned themselves long ago to being a "London-Irish" band in lieu of anything more imaginative. The point is, or was, that we all ended up in London whether we had started in Manchester, Devon, Dublin or Tipperary. It was our London-ness that united us, a certain cosmopolitan outlook that could almost certainly never have occurred in any of our respective places of origin.

See, in this day and age, everything (and everyone) must be labelled..must be pigeon-holed. Without a handy label, we mistrust and fear..majority of people would hesitate to buy a tin of beans that wasn't labelled..i've lost my train of thought now..BAH!...don't do drugs...

blueboxlife wrote:It is important to note that Nation Branding campaigns - in the end - always look for empowerment of the actors, i.e. the states being involved.

The Pogues, as far as I know, never intended to change the image of Ireland. I'm not familiar with the nomenclature, so maybe I'm mistaken, but the way you've described it, it sounds to me like 'Nation Branding' implies intent.

To my mind, their songs paint a much clearer picture of London or America than they do of Ireland. In fact, many more of their songs deal with Irish expats and their adopted states than with Ireland or the Irish living there. Although 'Thousands are Sailing' and 'Fairytale of New York' are ostensibly 'Irish,' they could just as easily be about any number of non-Irish immigrants with analogous experiences. I can relate to an Irish immigrant -- any immigrant -- living, struggling, suffering, and dying in America. I have more difficulty relating to an Irishman on Irish soil. And not just because I'm American and my ancestors shared experiences similar to those of the protagonists in 'Thousands are Sailing' et al. Personally, I moved around a lot as a kid, and never really had a home, so naturally, I identify with the immigrant. But the immigrant is nothing if not an outsider, and *any* outsider can identify with him.

Point is much of the Pogues' material, intentionally or not, deals with international/universal themes -- not themes particular to the Irish/Ireland. Which makes it anything but 'Nation Branding.'

As for Shane, I've never seen him as typically Irish. I've never seen him as typically anything. The man is anything but typical. And as such, his personality has done very little to mold my image of the Irish.

When someone says he's Irish, I think of the Dubliners. When someone says he's from London, I think of the Pogues. For what it's worth.

Thanks for your quick response. I appreciate it very much and it's great to get an impression "from the inside".

philipchevron wrote:The "concept of Irishness" is neither here nor there, really - it's whatever a person who considers himself Irish or Irish-ish says it is at any given time - and among other things The Pogues achieved was the band's refusal to conform to anyone else's view of what Irish is, least of all those of State or semi-state bodies on either side of the Irish sea.

Yes, Irishness is a very flexible notion and, as you have pointed out, open to everyone, taking on meaning that is usually dealt with in one’s own and personal framework. Nonetheless, among many other things, The Pogues pose a platform to anyone, who is interested in Irish culture. The band's legacy is a great place to start developing an interest in Irish Folk as the band made Irish music fashionable, in the 80s, i.e. they played their part in making it available to the public on a broader scale (with a modified vibe to it encompassing Punk). The Pogues were the embodiment of raw and punky Folk music in the context of popular music rather than a they were just a London-Irish Punk band, I dare say. Would you object?

Anyways, The Pogues stand in line of the ‚pure Irish Folk tradition’ (if such thing exists), which started with unknown musicians in the 12th century or even earlier, continuing with folks like Turlogh O'Carolan or Patsy Touhey, the writings of Francis O Neill, culminating with the Clancy Brothers, and the Dubliners in the 50s and 60s. All of these acts and actors have in common that they highlighted Irish Folk Music as a major Irish cultural export. And like the Pogues, they have altered styles.

philipchevron wrote:you propose, as part of your thesis, to argue that Irishness is synonymous with drunkenness just because the stereotype says so

No! That is not my aim. Don't misunderstand me here. I just wanted to make the point that Irishness and sadly The Pogues at times as well have been linked to exactly this cliché of the drunken stage Irishman (in which Shane and the band might have played a part in some moments as well). I do not want to enforce or underpin any of these prejudices with my paper, neither do I deal with Irishness being synonymous with drunkenness and least of all do I want to say that The Pogues were only a mirror image of this stereotype. There is so much more in Irish, London Irish and Irish-diasporic culture than this, and in The Pogues. I’m very much aware of that.

Having lived in Ireland for quite some time and being interested in Irish culture ever since, I have come across many of these stereotypes. Unfortuntaley, The Pogues have often been seen in the light of that - as far as my research has shown up to this point - although the music bears so much more. Hence it's rather my concern to analyse the ways you represented and transferred many aspects of Irish and Irish diasporic culture to the present day by means of playing music and travelling around the world, which makes The Pogues a non-governmental actor by definition. In doing so the band was “branding” Ireland and the diaspora in a way, that affected the view on the Irish and the Irish community scattered around the world. Being a great fan and admirer of The Pogues, I discover many more aspects in the songs than just drunken Paddyism, believe me. And that is exactly the point, which makes it interesting if it comes to Nation Branding as a historicised concept.

It is not in question to deny The Pogues' London Irish identity. I’m just specifically interested in how the band affected the image of Ireland, which lies in the nature of the problem that I am dealing with and at the core of my paper. The line of questioning is transnational, so to speak: How can a London Irish band have an impact on the way Ireland is being perceived? To what extent is Irishness present in The Pogues?

(Btw. There is a nice chapter in Sean Campbell's book "Irish Blood, English Heart" entitled: "The Importance of being (London-) Irish: Hybridity, Essentialism and The Pogues" - for everyone who is interested in a scholarly account on The Pogues and the specificities of their London Irish identity).

Would anybody deny that The Pogues' oevre has had an impact on how people around the world view Ireland and Irishness these days, that it contributed to the image of the Irish among contemporaries of the 80s and 90s and that it will last as a mirror image of Irish and Irish diasporic tradition/culture of the time for future generations? That is not a rhetoric but serious question (things can get confusing in the www;) )

Welcome Blueboxlife

Your questions are those that have divided opinion since 1983. Have The Pogues shaped the way other countries view Ireland or did Ireland shape the way The Pogues created their image? Both questions may be correct. For example, Shane has always tried to emulate his idea of Irishness through the attitude and look of Brendan Behan by wearing a black two piece suit and a white shirt. It's his perception of what the classic Irish drinker, balladeer or writer would wear. Therefore, by Shane suggesting that members of the band should also wear the same uniform on stage and perform 'Paddy Works On The Railway' and 'Muirsheen Durkin' they created the impression that they were an Irish band. I started listening to them in 1985 and it was a huge shock when i found out that only one of the band was Irish. The drunken Paddy stereotype was unfortunate as they were just a bunch of lads that liked a few pints who happened to be playing Irish music at the same time.

As much as some Irish people might have tried to ignore or ridicule The Pogues and their unique sound in the early years, the rest of the world embaced their sound first, then they realised it was Irish music they were listening to and naturally assumed that this is what Ireland was really like (aren't all Koreans and their music just like Gangnam Style? ). Although Philip says that the band were united through members' London-ness, which is true, it was due to Shane's London-Irish-ness that they created the image they did.

So i would say yes, The Pogues have contributed to the image of Ireland as shambolic or rough and ready and always up for a good time but only to those people who cannot be bothered to look beyond the surface. Unfortunately though, that's most of the population. So 'Nation Branding' is crucial for any country who is keen to attract new visitors for whatever reason (tourism, business etc.). For all those people who are too lazy to find the truth for themselves.

Hi Will, thanks for your opinion.

Will wrote:The Pogues, as far as I know, never intended to change the image of Ireland. I'm not familiar with the nomenclature, so maybe I'm mistaken, but the way you've described it, it sounds to me like 'Nation Branding' implies intent.

Probably my mistake. Here, Nation Branding does not have to be intentional. It's a method which has been conveyed from economics to the field of history. In economics Nation Branding surely is intentional. Campaigns of that nature try to promote and improve images of countries. However, in the historical sense, the concept does not imply intention. The concept just looks for the actual process of how an image developed in the past, thereby highlighting actors which contribute to it. As you say, bands like the Dubliners might have had a severe impact as well but to analyse this would probably require another 50 pages

Will wrote:When someone says he's Irish, I think of the Dubliners. When someone says he's from London, I think of the Pogues. For what it's worth.

I loved reading your post. But your statement above absolutely confirms my point that most of us only think of the stereotypes that we have ingrained in our minds.

Germany.......efficient, no sense of humour, drinkers.
Australia.......sporty, drinkers, couldn't give a XXXX.

And on and on......

I was not suggesting you were equating Irishness with drunkenness, The reason I drew attention to the matter is your own choice of words while "thinking aloud" on the matter seemed to me to betray a certain lack of intellectual rigour in accepting it at face value. My point was the Pogues have both challenged and incorporated this paradigm. It's pointless to say alcohol abuse is not a major factor of Irish life, because the facts would quite baldly contradict you and empirical evidence suggests, in Ireland, a society all but crippled by its inability to face its own dependencies, a matter my friend Declan Lynch addresses frequently, and more eloquently than I can, in his newspaper columns. I'm not trying to quarrel with you, just to guide you in the direction of the potentially more interesting questions. Is the drunken Paddy as much a post-colonial phenomenon as many would consider the Australian aboriginal or the American indian?

To specifically address your point about Nation Branding, though the concept is new to me, it sounds like one of those academic constructs that may or may not in itself be a glib form of forensics, but I'm getting from you that this is something in which one can find oneself a passive "actor", that to be part of a self-conscious economic or historic project does not necessarily imply complicity in it. However, the Pogues have always in fact been acutely aware of how and when we are shanghaied for purposes not our own, as indeed we have been equally aware when we have been excluded from this process, as omission is even more intriguing, I find. Nobody, for example, has ever approached us to play any part in The Gathering, the latest official Ireland attempt at Nation Branding (and every bit as lame as Tony Blair's Cool Brittania!)

One of the pleasures of the past 30 years as a band has been playing around with these expectations and tropes, in part because it appears to be the last thing anyone expects of us and, in fairness, we almost never engage in academic discussion of what we do. If anything, our function is one of disrupting the narratives, both positive and negative, in recognition of their essential artificiality and presumptousness. If you can find it, there's an academic piece in a book somewhere which makes the case, at some length, that the Pogues exist simply to lead the Carnival. Of disruption, of Saturnalia, of transgression. Naturally, we have little option but to deny that proposal too, however!

Fr. McGreer wrote:

Will wrote:When someone says he's Irish, I think of the Dubliners. When someone says he's from London, I think of the Pogues. For what it's worth.

I loved reading your post. But your statement above absolutely confirms my point that most of us only think of the stereotypes that we have ingrained in our minds.

Germany.......efficient, no sense of humour, drinkers.
Australia.......sporty, drinkers, couldn't give a XXXX.

And on and on......

The Pogues have informed my image of London to a certain extent; Rainy Night in Soho, the Old Main Drag, Transmetropolitan, Dark Streets of London, London You're a Lady, etc., all paint a portrait. But unless that portrait is a stereotypical one, I can hardly be said to hold a stereotypical view of London. (And I'm aware that my idea of London is nothing approaching the reality.)

The case is much the same with the Dubliners in regards to Ireland. When I say I think of the Dubliners, I don't mean I think of a bunch of hard-drinking, scruffy, pugnacious little Irishmen; I think of the songs they sang and the pictures those songs painted in my mind. So yeah, the Ireland in my head is a romantic one -- but not a stereotypical one.

I agree with you that people like labels, though. Especially in America, land of identity politics. Men against women, whites against blacks, blacks against Hispanics, Hispanics against blacks, liberals against conservatives, protestants against atheists, atheists and protestants against papists -- I could go on.

Will wrote:

Fr. McGreer wrote:

Will wrote:When someone says he's Irish, I think of the Dubliners. When someone says he's from London, I think of the Pogues. For what it's worth.

I loved reading your post. But your statement above absolutely confirms my point that most of us only think of the stereotypes that we have ingrained in our minds.

Germany.......efficient, no sense of humour, drinkers.
Australia.......sporty, drinkers, couldn't give a XXXX.

And on and on......

The Pogues have informed my image of London to a certain extent; Rainy Night in Soho, the Old Main Drag, Transmetropolitan, Dark Streets of London, London You're a Lady, etc., all paint a portrait. But unless that portrait is a stereotypical one, I can hardly be said to hold a stereotypical view of London. (And I'm aware that my idea of London is nothing approaching the reality.)

The case is much the same with the Dubliners in regards to Ireland. When I say I think of the Dubliners, I don't mean I think of a bunch of hard-drinking, scruffy, pugnacious little Irishmen; I think of the songs they sang and the pictures those songs painted in my mind. So yeah, the Ireland in my head is a romantic one -- but not a stereotypical one.

Ah yes, now you've made that distinction i see your point. I suppose Stereotyping would mean belonging to a group who hold preconceived ideas. You're only doing what all of us do and form our impressions based on the information and images we've absorbed. That's exactly what Shane did when he had a certain image of New York that formed the basis of Fairytale.