The Medusa Fora

This has always bugged the hell out of me. As I understand it, what became the superb " Poguetry in motion" e.p. was originally intended to be the start of work on the band's next album.Stiff got into diffuculties and the tracks they had were put out as the e.p. Imagine IISFFGWG with, for arguments sake, " The body of an American " instead of " Metropolis " and " A rainy night in Soho " instead of " Fiesta ". Jesus, what an album ! It would house arguably their two greatest ballads, Fairytale and ...Rainy night..." The American trilogy " idea of FONY, Body... and Thousands... would be intact. It would be me, for me, quite possibly one of, if not THE greatest albums ever recorded. It's close as it is. What might have been...!

dsweeney wrote:This has always bugged the hell out of me. As I understand it, what became the superb " Poguetry in motion" e.p. was originally intended to be the start of work on the band's next album.Stiff got into diffuculties and the tracks they had were put out as the e.p. Imagine IISFFGWG with, for arguments sake, " The body of an American " instead of " Metropolis " and " A rainy night in Soho " instead of " Fiesta ". Jesus, what an album ! It would house arguably their two greatest ballads, Fairytale and ...Rainy night..." The American trilogy " idea of FONY, Body... and Thousands... would be intact. It would be me, for me, quite possibly one of, if not THE greatest albums ever recorded. It's close as it is. What might have been...!

Poguetry In Motion was always conceived as a 4-track EP. There was never any discussion of a new album at that stage. Indeed, Rum, Sodomy had just been released in North America by MCA. More than that, it could be argued that without the success and acceptance of Poguetry, the band might have found its pogress to the assuredness of IISFFGWG less smooth.

I am positive that one of the various books on the Pogues has it that the band went into the studio intent on working on the next album but that the crap with Stiff put paid to it, resulting in the four tracks laid down being released on their own.Maybe the author had it wrong. Or somebody in the Pogues camp had a different take on things. As usual.

Imagine if unicorns really existed!

That's hilarious.No, really. The thing is though, the problems that led to Stiff Records going belly up really DID exist, so you're stupid analogy doesn't really work. Either one of the books, or one of the documentaries had it that what became the EP originally was intended to be the next album, so wondering what might have been but for unforeseen circumstances is quite legitimate I would have thought. PC says this was never the case, so that's that. But it IS in public record somewhere that this WAS the case.

Surely one doesn't have to imagine what IISFFGWG would be like with those tracks. Just make a new playlist and put them all together. For extra credit try to put them together in a way that seems to make sense instead of letting DJ Shuffle do it.

Then of course there's the big decision to make ... leave South Australia in the location where it landed when the CD was issued but know that it has always made the band unhappy there, or shuffle it off to the end as was done on the remaster and reissue.

dsweeney wrote:I am positive that one of the various books on the Pogues has it that the band went into the studio intent on working on the next album but that the crap with Stiff put paid to it, resulting in the four tracks laid down being released on their own.Maybe the author had it wrong. Or somebody in the Pogues camp had a different take on things. As usual.

You asked a question. I answered it. End of.

dsweeney wrote:This has always bugged the hell out of me. As I understand it, what became the superb " Poguetry in motion" e.p. was originally intended to be the start of work on the band's next album.Stiff got into diffuculties and the tracks they had were put out as the e.p. Imagine IISFFGWG with, for arguments sake, " The body of an American " instead of " Metropolis " and " A rainy night in Soho " instead of " Fiesta ". Jesus, what an album ! It would house arguably their two greatest ballads, Fairytale and ...Rainy night..." The American trilogy " idea of FONY, Body... and Thousands... would be intact. It would be me, for me, quite possibly one of, if not THE greatest albums ever recorded. It's close as it is. What might have been...!

Once again you seem to miss the point. "Metropolis" and "Fiesta" are BRILLIANT tracks (of course you don't have to like them, everybody to his / her own...) and are part of this wonderful LP called "IISFFGWG". They really fit into the whole thing as tremendous songs and make the album a variety of different musical styles and elements which work together in wonderful harmony and make "IISFFGWG" a stand-out LP to this date and beyond it. The album is so exciting because it combines so many different influences in so many great songs which make the album an out-of-this-world heavenly listening experience
I don't really understand your intention behind your post, but maybe I'm too young and dumb or whatever. And why don't you believe Phil Chevron? Don't get me wrong, I don't want to "defend" him (don't think I have to and don't consider myself in any position to do so) nor "lick anyones arse" as you once put it, but he is a member of the Pogues and has been since officially 1985 I believe. Why should he lie or tell stories the way they didn't happen? Of course everybody has his / her own memories of things and when you read "The story of the Pogues" by Carol Clerk, you'll find that various Pogues have got at times quite different recollections and personal experiences of the same events / situations. Anyway, I don't want to offend you! I really liked the discussion about "Peace and Love" and "Hell's Ditch" and I liked your sometimes challenging opinions which were quite interesting and it was great that you stood behind yourself. Well, as you can see while reading this post, I'm quite bored right now otherwise I wouldn't write so much gibberish

Good Health to you all!

IISFFGWG. is already the world's best album. End of;)

Edit. Never mind.

dsweeney wrote: But it IS in public record somewhere that this WAS the case.

OK, I'll bite. Where IS this public record and how does this prove that it WAS the case?

Do you have a never knowingly wrong t-shirt? If not, you can buy one of mine.

dsweeney wrote:That's hilarious.No, really. The thing is though, the problems that led to Stiff Records going belly up really DID exist, so you're stupid analogy doesn't really work. Either one of the books, or one of the documentaries had it that what became the EP originally was intended to be the next album, so wondering what might have been but for unforeseen circumstances is quite legitimate I would have thought. PC says this was never the case, so that's that. But it IS in public record somewhere that this WAS the case.

I wonder if maybe you are thinking of the "Terry Woods solo album". If I recall correctly, Stiff was in trouble, The Pogues started recording IISFFGWG in "secret" as a Terry Woods solo album (a trick which apparantly didn't fool too many people) as they were still under contract to Stiff, but didn't have faith the album would get the promotion it deserved with Stiff, so were recording the album while waiting for Stiff to fall.

soulfinger wrote:

dsweeney wrote: But it IS in public record somewhere that this WAS the case.

OK, I'll bite. Where IS this public record and how does this prove that it WAS the case?

Do you have a never knowingly wrong t-shirt? If not, you can buy one of mine.

To be honest, I genuinely can't remember where I heard this but I'm positive I did. I didn't make it up or imagine it. Why would I ? I'm simply saying that initially when the band went into the studio it was to begin work on the next album, just as normal. Then at some point they decided to release a 4 track ep, as Phil says.By this point there were eight Pogues, plus Frank Murray. That's a lot of memories and individual takes on things. But as I said, if Phil says it was ALWAYS intended to be an ep, so be it. I simply heard different.
Regardless of the circumstances surrounding the ep, Phil is right in it being a kind of stepping stone to " ..Grace.." I always found the transition from " Rum.." to " ..Grace.." a little jarring but if you play the ep between them the progression is more natural, more organic. Seamless in fact. Oh and BTW, I love " ..Grace " as it is. I just mused what might have been but for a set of circumstances beyond the bands control. If I had it wrong the that's that.

dsweeney wrote:

soulfinger wrote:

dsweeney wrote: But it IS in public record somewhere that this WAS the case.

OK, I'll bite. Where IS this public record and how does this prove that it WAS the case?

Do you have a never knowingly wrong t-shirt? If not, you can buy one of mine.

To be honest, I genuinely can't remember where I heard this but I'm positive I did. I didn't make it up or imagine it. Why would I ? I'm simply saying that initially when the band went into the studio it was to begin work on the next album, just as normal. Then at some point they decided to release a 4 track ep, as Phil says.By this point there were eight Pogues, plus Frank Murray. That's a lot of memories and individual takes on things. But as I said, if Phil says it was ALWAYS intended to be an ep, so be it. I simply heard different.
Regardless of the circumstances surrounding the ep, Phil is right in it being a kind of stepping stone to " ..Grace.." I always found the transition from " Rum.." to " ..Grace.." a little jarring but if you play the ep between them the progression is more natural, more organic. Seamless in fact. Oh and BTW, I love " ..Grace " as it is. I just mused what might have been but for a set of circumstances beyond the bands control. If I had it wrong the that's that.

Didnt Costello produce Pogetry??? I dont think the guys would have let Costello record another album from the comments that came after. I would have thought the stiff problems would have been after this as I think the irish rover (six months after) was Stiff as well. Both the Lost Decade and carol clarkes book say the band where secretly recording as the terry woods solo band waiting for everything to be sorted

RICHB wrote:

dsweeney wrote:

soulfinger wrote:

dsweeney wrote: But it IS in public record somewhere that this WAS the case.

OK, I'll bite. Where IS this public record and how does this prove that it WAS the case?

Do you have a never knowingly wrong t-shirt? If not, you can buy one of mine.

To be honest, I genuinely can't remember where I heard this but I'm positive I did. I didn't make it up or imagine it. Why would I ? I'm simply saying that initially when the band went into the studio it was to begin work on the next album, just as normal. Then at some point they decided to release a 4 track ep, as Phil says.By this point there were eight Pogues, plus Frank Murray. That's a lot of memories and individual takes on things. But as I said, if Phil says it was ALWAYS intended to be an ep, so be it. I simply heard different.
Regardless of the circumstances surrounding the ep, Phil is right in it being a kind of stepping stone to " ..Grace.." I always found the transition from " Rum.." to " ..Grace.." a little jarring but if you play the ep between them the progression is more natural, more organic. Seamless in fact. Oh and BTW, I love " ..Grace " as it is. I just mused what might have been but for a set of circumstances beyond the bands control. If I had it wrong the that's that.

Didnt Costello produce Pogetry??? I dont think the guys would have let Costello record another album from the comments that came after. I would have thought the stiff problems would have been after this as I think the irish rover (six months after) was Stiff as well. Both the Lost Decade and carol clarkes book say the band where secretly recording as the terry woods solo band waiting for everything to be sorted

Apart from anything else, how could the issues with Stiff Records have had anything to do with whether we gave them an LP or an EP? If your relationship with your record company has deteriorated to that extent (as later was the case with Stiff), you don't want them to release anything, so it doesn't really matter how many tracks are on the darn thing. At the beginning of 1986, both The Pogues and Stiff (and MCA in the US) were acutely aware how much was riding on Poguetry In Motion, after the success of Rum, Sodomy. Some sort of "stop-gap" release was out of the question. It is true that, because we had concentrated so much on early work on "Fairytale of New York", we had not actually written enough new stuff for an album, but that wasn't the issue - at the time we needed a solid hit in the UK singles chart and Poguetry was our first Top 30 placing [No 29] so it did the job, while also successfully introducing the new Pogues line-up [with both myself and Terry Woods] properly on record for the first time.

In addition, and this is something I have covered in the sleeve notes of Straight To Hell Returns , I think - I've always believed there was a sort of "missing" Pogues album between Rum and Grace, which never got recorded, but elements of which crept out in other guises.