Those wacky Rhino Brothers have us boxed in again!!

[pogues24]

I personally prefer the original vinyl track listing of If I Should Fall From Grace With God, I think adding songs like South Australia and The Battle March Medley, burdens the overall flow of the album. Now don't get me wrong I love both songs, but I agree with Mr. Chevron, when he comments that South Australia doesn't seem to gel with Fairytale/Metropolis/Thousands, and I always thought that including The Battle March Medley after Lullaby of London slowed the album down. I love that the tracks have now been positioned as B-sides as they were originally . I don't think the exclusion of these two tracks upsets the overall "traditional" aspects of the album, with the exception of Fiesta, there is still more than enough Poguetry to go around. I also totally disagree about the eastern sounds on Hell's Ditch as shite, I found Hell's Ditch to be a much welcome return to form, following the disjointed, yet still equally good Peace and Love.

[Low D]

In Friday's edition of the " Ticket " entertainment supplement in the Irish Times, there is a music review section. One of the genres was under the heading of " traditional ". Irish peopl know what that means.

That's right. Just ask Noel Hill.

[dsweeney]

I believe Noel Hill has gone on to say the Pogues are a great band, despite his inital misgivings. " Traditional Irish music " is widely understood to be a musical form and that is what I meant when referring to TBMM, as distinct from the jazz or Spanish influneces of some other tracks.
" Peace and love " while it has it's moments, is a very patchy album to say the least. " Hell's ditch " is much more consistent but is a pop album really. A very good pop album but a long way from the original vision of the Pogues. Shane's " The snake " is the next great album after IISFFGWG, in my opinion. And I prefer the CD version of it, which includes " Nancy whiskey ", " You're the one " and the brilliant " Haunted " with Sinead.

[pogues24]

I believe Noel Hill has gone on to say the Pogues are a great band, despite his inital misgivings. " Traditional Irish music " is widely understood to be a musical form and that is what I meant when referring to TBMM, as distinct from the jazz or Spanish influneces of some other tracks.
" Peace and love " while it has it's moments, is a very patchy album to say the least. " Hell's ditch " is much more consistent but is a pop album really. A very good pop album but a long way from the original vision of the Pogues. Shane's " The snake " is the next great album after IISFFGWG, in my opinion. And I prefer the CD version of it, which includes " Nancy whiskey ", " You're the one " and the brilliant " Haunted " with Sinead.

True, howver if your one to classify an album as sounding "traditional," than I think Shane's Crock of Gold falls more into that category than The Snake. The Snake like If I Should Fall From Grace With God, also explores other musical scopes as well (Mexican Funeral In Paris, The Church of the Holy Spook, That Women's Got Me Drinking, and Victoria,) however like If I Should Fall From Grace With God, it's still very much Irish folk to the core.

[Low D]

I believe Noel Hill has gone on to say the Pogues are a great band, despite his inital misgivings.

True, but i still couldn't resist. Sorry Noel!

[dsweeney]

I believe Noel Hill has gone on to say the Pogues are a great band, despite his inital misgivings. " Traditional Irish music " is widely understood to be a musical form and that is what I meant when referring to TBMM, as distinct from the jazz or Spanish influneces of some other tracks.
" Peace and love " while it has it's moments, is a very patchy album to say the least. " Hell's ditch " is much more consistent but is a pop album really. A very good pop album but a long way from the original vision of the Pogues. Shane's " The snake " is the next great album after IISFFGWG, in my opinion. And I prefer the CD version of it, which includes " Nancy whiskey ", " You're the one " and the brilliant " Haunted " with Sinead.

True, howver if your one to classify an album as sounding "traditional," than I think Shane's Crock of Gold falls more into that category than The Snake. The Snake like If I Should Fall From Grace With God, also explores other musical scopes as well (Mexican Funeral In Paris, The Church of the Holy Spook, That Women's Got Me Drinking, and Victoria,) however like If I Should Fall From Grace With God, it's still very much Irish folk to the core.

Oh absolutely, yeah " Crock of gold " is full of " country 'n' Irish " and has none of the rock guitar of the Snake, as you say. I would say that while " COG" has none of the high points of " The snake", it is a much more consistent listen for me. " Joey's in America " is vintage Pogues. " Mother mo chraoi " had it's roots in " NW3 ". " Rock'n'roll Paddy " is Eddie Cochrane's " Come on everybody " but "who cares", it works! And " Lonesome highway", is Shane in Hank Williams mode. American country had it's origin in Scots and Irish traditional music so it makes sense to my ears. " Ceili cowboy ", damn right y'all.

[dsweeney]

I may have pissed Phil off enough already but what the hell. I have a query. Is there any reason why the " Jack's heroes " / " Whiskey in the jar " single was left off the box-set ? As far as I can see the Remasters have mopped up all the b-sides, E.P.'s etc except these two tracks. " Whiskey in the jar " can be got on a Dubliners collection but " Jack's heroes " seems to be lost forever. They would have been a welcome addition to the box-set.

[dsweeney]

Sorry folks, my bad again, they are on the remastered " Hell's ditch ", didn't realise that. Great that they are available.

[Low D]

I believe Noel Hill has gone on to say the Pogues are a great band, despite his inital misgivings.

True, but i still couldn't resist. Sorry Noel!

Funny, I'm reading "The Humours of Planxty" right now, and that whole debate about ruining Irish traditional music was going on with the formation of Planxty (with whom Noel Hill would later play):

'As is the case in any context, those who break new ground will naturally have their detractors and sceptics. The most radical aspect of Planxty was the presence of Liam O'Flynn, a muscian of the Irish tradition, a tradition that for many people existed as a very defined approach to music. In his decision to join ths band of long-haired folkies, he was stepping outside of the traditional world. And, despite the fact that Liam knew he was neither betraying the tradition nor jettisoning anything he had learned, the inevitable criticism and doubts ensued...
[Andy Irvine] 'There were doubts about Laim at the beginning becasue there were a lot of traditional musicians who really didn't respect his decision to be in this band with mandolins, bouzoukis and guitars... It was very much a step against the advice, surely, of the people he ran with... '
Donal recalls that there were certain people who felt that the music should be played in its pure form as it was played a hundred years ago... 'What we were doing was much too radical for a lot of people...' "

[dsweeney]

Hmmm, very interesting, good stuff. There are echoes of the folk establishment crying foul when Dylan went electric I suppose. For what it's worth, in my opinion the Pogues are the single most important band for Irish traditional and folk music since the Dubliners, Chieftans, Clancy's etc in that they made it relevant to people of my generation. That is, the white-boy guitar, punk / rock generation. As a kid the only trad on the radio was dreadful bland RTE Radio mush. The Pogues put the fire and spittle back into the music, as it was played long before the " music industry " diluted it for the lunch -time airwaves. Far from killing traditional Irish music, the Pogues breathed new life into it, revitalised it and their songs, from " Streams of whiskey " to " A rainy night in Soho " will be played in Irish homes for years to come, long after the band have hung up their instruments.

[Low D]

Hmmm, very interesting, good stuff. There are echoes of the folk establishment crying foul when Dylan went electric I suppose.

You know, I've always suspected some of those who booed Dylan when he went electric probably booed Sinead O'Connor at the Dylan birthday concert in NYC. Losers. What, they're supporters of the Pope all of a sudden?

But it's the same thing anytime anyone tries to do something different, i suppose. I mean, lots of folks thought the Clash "sold out" or otherwise sucked after the first album, or the second. Like punk was already a sacred traditional format or something! It's all just variations on Johnathan Livingston Seagull, innit?

[dsweeney]

Totally agree with you on the Clash. In fact, " Sandinista " is by far and away their most political album. From the title itself down to the songs, Joe points the finger directly at America, no punches pulled. The thing people seem to forget is that while from " London calling " onwards they explored new ground, inventing some new sounds as well, in their first two albums they actually made more punk music than the Pistols, who only made one album. Add a load of non-album singles and b-sides and the Clash more than did their punk duty.
I always loved the fact that Dylan liked the Pogues. Kindred spirits I would say. The folk angle is an obvious link, Dylan's love of story songs and ballads. But also from very early on Dylan was a huge fan of the Clancy brothers so, it makes sense. I wonder what he made of the Pogues's cover of " When the ship comes in " ? I wouldnl't know of this but for the box-set, one of my favourite tracks on it. It has that old-school Pogues sound, raw and full of accordian and whistle and even Spider manages a great vocal on it.

[Low D]

I always loved the fact that Dylan liked the Pogues. Kindred spirits I would say. The folk angle is an obvious link, Dylan's love of story songs and ballads. But also from very early on Dylan was a huge fan of the Clancy brothers so, it makes sense. I wonder what he made of the Pogues's cover of " When the ship comes in " ? I wouldnl't know of this but for the box-set, one of my favourite tracks on it. It has that old-school Pogues sound, raw and full of accordian and whistle and even Spider manages a great vocal on it.

Have you ever heard the version of "When the Ship Comes In" by the Clancy Bros. at the Bob Dylan birthday concert? For my money, that's the only one what tops the Pogues' take on it.

[James]

I always loved the fact that Dylan liked the Pogues. Kindred spirits I would say. The folk angle is an obvious link, Dylan's love of story songs and ballads. But also from very early on Dylan was a huge fan of the Clancy brothers so, it makes sense. I wonder what he made of the Pogues's cover of " When the ship comes in " ? I wouldnl't know of this but for the box-set, one of my favourite tracks on it. It has that old-school Pogues sound, raw and full of accordian and whistle and even Spider manages a great vocal on it.

Have you ever heard the version of "When the Ship Comes In" by the Clancy Bros. at the Bob Dylan birthday concert? For my money, that's the only one what tops the Pogues' take on it.

I don't really like either the Pogues or the Clancys version of that one. You're never going to top the old testament leather jacket middle finger vibe of the Dylan original.

[dsweeney]

I didn't know the Clancy's did a version of it, no. I'm no expert on Dylan by any means and only have a small munber of his albums. I actually like his later albums a lot, " Love and theft " and " Modern times ". I like his country-ish albums as well, " John wesley Harding " and " Nashville skyline ". Heresy to some I know but I only know his early stuff from a superb collection of covers by The Byrds. And I love " The basement tapes " with The Band, one of, if not THE best groups ever, bar none.