Those wacky Rhino Brothers have us boxed in again!!

[cagliostro]

Just to toss in my 2 pennies, I started off with the album version, so it was a shock years later when I picked up the CD and the tracks where there breaking up the flow. I didn't mind "South Australia"'s inclusion between what I saw as album sides - it felt more like playing another song before flipping the album over. My biggest complaint was breaking up the "cool down" period of the album - "Lullabye of London", "Sit Down By the Fire" (the last little boost of energy) and "The Broad Majestic Shannon". That has always felt more disruptive in my opinion.

[dsweeney]

Of course the Pogues decide which is the " correct " version of an album, I totally accept that, without any hesitation. I simply prefer the cd version of the album with " South Australia " and " The battle march medley " in there.
I may have misunderstood you but when you say the company pasted the cassette running order on to the cd, resulting in " S A " and " T b m m " being included, you are wrong Phil. I know because I had the cassette version and the two tracks were nowhere to be found. Never. Some years later the cd came out and there they were.
I had " Rum..." originally on cassette so I don't know when it came out on cd, certainly nothing like 1985, as you say.
I understand this will be a bit contentious for you Phil but I always felt it was a deliberate decision by the record company to boost the " traditional " count on " ...grace.." to give it a more of a ( 'til then ) Pogues " feel ". They didn't add " Sketches of Spain " did they, even though it's a not a bad little number at all ? I say this not to denegrate a mother classic album in any way. Personally I love the way your own " Thousands..." leads into " South..." and " Lullaby of London " and " Battle march..." is pure traditional class. But again, that's just my personal opinion.
Right so, " The Kerry polka " it is.

I think you're right about the cassette of IISFFGWG in the UK but if anything, that just goes to illustrate how keen the record companies were to kickstart the CD format. However, the two tracks definitely showed up on some overseas issues of the cassette. Just to further confuse the issue, Red Roses, on its first cassette and CD US release, also includes "Whiskey You're The Devil", "Muirshin Durkin" and, perhaps, I'm not sure, "Repeal".

"Sketches of Spain" was not available to Warners until we recorded it, in 1988, especially as a b side for "Fiesta". It did not exist before then. In any event, Warners were unable, legally, to do anything to our albums without our express consent, though in practice, this often just entailed a quick phone conversation with Frank Murray.

"The Battle March Medley", by the way, is not traditional. That one really was written by Terry Woods, in 1987.

And, for the record, I absolutely hate how "South Australia" follows "Thousands Are Sailing". That section of the album, "Fairytale"/"Metropolis"/"Thousands" has a very specific emotional narrative. The mood is destroyed by the ensuing sea shanty, much as I love it in its own right. However, I did not buy the album and presumably you did, which I think makes your opinion sovereign on the matter.

Phil, when I said traditional I meant " traditional music " and more specifically traditional IRISH music, as distinct from the Spanish and jazz flavours on other tracks. Of course T.Woods wrote it and the playing from the whole band is superb. A great track.
Your point about the emotion in the Fairytale/ Metropolis/ Thousands are sailing section is fair enough. However, if South Australia was plonked somewhere in the middle of this " American trilogy " I would totally agree with your gripe, but it isn't. The three tracks are unbroken and in the original running order. I don't see how it affects it coming AFTER the trilogy. After all, in the running order you insist on, Fiesta comes after them so what's the problem, you know ? Doubtless you will say the original album's " side one " ( for those of us old enough to remember such things ) ended after the trilogy and had a kind of closure to them. But this is the CD VERSION we're talking about so that point is invalid. SOMETHING would come after them!
This is only a minor point but one that is slightly relevent here. For me personally, the " jazz " elements in Metropolis never felt " American ". While no expert, to me it was more french noir or certainly some kind of European thing. Certainly not New Orleans or Big Band anyway so while Fairytale and Thousands are most certainly sister songs, the case for the American side to Metropolis is less so I think.

[philipchevron]

Of course the Pogues decide which is the " correct " version of an album, I totally accept that, without any hesitation. I simply prefer the cd version of the album with " South Australia " and " The battle march medley " in there.
I may have misunderstood you but when you say the company pasted the cassette running order on to the cd, resulting in " S A " and " T b m m " being included, you are wrong Phil. I know because I had the cassette version and the two tracks were nowhere to be found. Never. Some years later the cd came out and there they were.
I had " Rum..." originally on cassette so I don't know when it came out on cd, certainly nothing like 1985, as you say.
I understand this will be a bit contentious for you Phil but I always felt it was a deliberate decision by the record company to boost the " traditional " count on " ...grace.." to give it a more of a ( 'til then ) Pogues " feel ". They didn't add " Sketches of Spain " did they, even though it's a not a bad little number at all ? I say this not to denegrate a mother classic album in any way. Personally I love the way your own " Thousands..." leads into " South..." and " Lullaby of London " and " Battle march..." is pure traditional class. But again, that's just my personal opinion.
Right so, " The Kerry polka " it is.

I think you're right about the cassette of IISFFGWG in the UK but if anything, that just goes to illustrate how keen the record companies were to kickstart the CD format. However, the two tracks definitely showed up on some overseas issues of the cassette. Just to further confuse the issue, Red Roses, on its first cassette and CD US release, also includes "Whiskey You're The Devil", "Muirshin Durkin" and, perhaps, I'm not sure, "Repeal".

"Sketches of Spain" was not available to Warners until we recorded it, in 1988, especially as a b side for "Fiesta". It did not exist before then. In any event, Warners were unable, legally, to do anything to our albums without our express consent, though in practice, this often just entailed a quick phone conversation with Frank Murray.

"The Battle March Medley", by the way, is not traditional. That one really was written by Terry Woods, in 1987.

And, for the record, I absolutely hate how "South Australia" follows "Thousands Are Sailing". That section of the album, "Fairytale"/"Metropolis"/"Thousands" has a very specific emotional narrative. The mood is destroyed by the ensuing sea shanty, much as I love it in its own right. However, I did not buy the album and presumably you did, which I think makes your opinion sovereign on the matter.

Phil, when I said traditional I meant " traditional music " and more specifically traditional IRISH music, as distinct from the Spanish and jazz flavours on other tracks. Of course T.Woods wrote it and the playing from the whole band is superb. A great track.
Your point about the emotion in the Fairytale/ Metropolis/ Thousands are sailing section is fair enough. However, if South Australia was plonked somewhere in the middle of this " American trilogy " I would totally agree with your gripe, but it isn't. The three tracks are unbroken and in the original running order. I don't see how it affects it coming AFTER the trilogy. After all, in the running order you insist on, Fiesta comes after them so what's the problem, you know ? Doubtless you will say the original album's " side one " ( for those of us old enough to remember such things ) ended after the trilogy and had a kind of closure to them. But this is the CD VERSION we're talking about so that point is invalid. SOMETHING would come after them!
This is only a minor point but one that is slightly relevent here. For me personally, the " jazz " elements in Metropolis never felt " American ". While no expert, to me it was more french noir or certainly some kind of European thing. Certainly not New Orleans or Big Band anyway so while Fairytale and Thousands are most certainly sister songs, the case for the American side to Metropolis is less so I think.

We could go on like this forever. I disagree. But I've conceded that as a record buyer you're perfectly entitled to your opinion, that your prefer the Warners travesty to the version the Pogues created. I don't know what more you want me to say.

I think, however, you may be misunderstanding the word "traditional" when applied to music, as I cannot otherwise explain your initial comments. "Traditional" or "Traditional arranged by........" has a very precise meaning in music copyright: it means the writer has been deceased a certain number of years - this varies from territory to territory but is usually between 50 and 75 - and that the song has therefore passed into the "public domain", which is to say that the writer need no longer be credited or paid royalties. The "arranged by" amounts to a new royalty claim from the named "arrangers", usually paid at 75% of what he/she/they would ordinarily receive as an original writer.

[dsweeney]

Ah Phil, to say you acknowledge my right as a buyer to prefer the " travesty " created by Warners is churlish, I think.

As a fellow Dubliner Phil, you know most people will call it " traditional Irish music " and know full well what that means.It doesn't have to be 75 years old for it to be " traditional ". Ask anybody what " Streams of whiskey " is and they'll tell you Irish music, " A pair of brown eyes", " The broad majestic Shannon".....

The use of the word " Traditional " as a songwriting credit means the song is so old nobody knows the original writer and as you say is now in " the public domain ". But does that mean " Johnny comes marching home " or " English civil war " is traditional IRISH music ? No, of course it doesn't.
Play ANYBODY " The battle march medley " and ask them what kind of music it is and they'll say " traditional Irish ",no matter that it is a modern tune from 1987. Suffice to say it is a tune written in the Irish traditional style.

[philipchevron]

Ah Phil, to say you acknowledge my right as a buyer to prefer the " travesty " created by Warners is churlish, I think.

As a fellow Dubliner Phil, you know most people will call it " traditional Irish music " and know full well what that means.It doesn't have to be 75 years old for it to be " traditional ". Ask anybody what " Streams of whiskey " is and they'll tell you Irish music, " A pair of brown eyes", " The broad majestic Shannon".....

The use of the word " Traditional " as a songwriting credit means the song is so old nobody knows the original writer and as you say is now in " the public domain ". But does that mean " Johnny comes marching home " or " English civil war " is traditional IRISH music ? No, of course it doesn't.
Play ANYBODY " The battle march medley " and ask them what kind of music it is and they'll say " traditional Irish ",no matter that it is a modern tune from 1987. Suffice to say it is a tune written in the Irish traditional style.

Sorry, at this point your argument is so egregiously cavalier that I would lose the will to live if I even attempted to address it. Traditional is traditional. It is not up for interpretation and it is not helpful to a greater understanding of our culture and our world for the informed to submit to the ignorance of the ill-informed.

[Clash Cadillac]

Sorry, at this point your argument is so egregiously cavalier that I would lose the will to live if I even attempted to address it.

love it

Mind if I steal this line to use during my "social network" debates with hard core conservative loonies? I mean this is exactly what I am usually thinking a few minutes into it.

[Low D]

we have once again become a distant "heritage" act to these people, useful only in keeping the "strategic marketing" targets in view.

But what's goofy about that, is if they want to be "strategic" they should be a little more carefull. Like a box set of remastered cds that represented the ACTUAL origional albums would probably have sold better than this somewhat pointless collection. What's sad is that this is the sort of thing that Rhino used to be so good at.

[kmurray105]

Sorry, at this point your argument is so egregiously cavalier that I would lose the will to live if I even attempted to address it.

love it

Mind if I steal this line to use during my "social network" debates with hard core conservative loonies? I mean this is exactly what I am usually thinking a few minutes into it.

Don't tell us you've moved the arguments with NJR to facebook?!

[philipchevron]

we have once again become a distant "heritage" act to these people, useful only in keeping the "strategic marketing" targets in view.

But what's goofy about that, is if they want to be "strategic" they should be a little more carefull. Like a box set of remastered cds that represented the ACTUAL origional albums would probably have sold better than this somewhat pointless collection. What's sad is that this is the sort of thing that Rhino used to be so good at.

The "Go To Rhino Records" of blessed Wild Man Fischer recall has little in common with today's indie-corporate variation.

[Guest]

Ah Phil, to say you acknowledge my right as a buyer to prefer the " travesty " created by Warners is churlish, I think.

As a fellow Dubliner Phil, you know most people will call it " traditional Irish music " and know full well what that means.It doesn't have to be 75 years old for it to be " traditional ". Ask anybody what " Streams of whiskey " is and they'll tell you Irish music, " A pair of brown eyes", " The broad majestic Shannon".....

The use of the word " Traditional " as a songwriting credit means the song is so old nobody knows the original writer and as you say is now in " the public domain ". But does that mean " Johnny comes marching home " or " English civil war " is traditional IRISH music ? No, of course it doesn't.
Play ANYBODY " The battle march medley " and ask them what kind of music it is and they'll say " traditional Irish ",no matter that it is a modern tune from 1987. Suffice to say it is a tune written in the Irish traditional style.

Sorry, at this point your argument is so egregiously cavalier that I would lose the will to live if I even attempted to address it. Traditional is traditional. It is not up for interpretation and it is not helpful to a greater understanding of our culture and our world for the informed to submit to the ignorance of the ill-informed.

Ridiculous Phil. A word can have more than one usage, as those of us informed in the use of the English language will tell you. By your songwriting definition EVERY SONG will be " traditional " in a hundred years time ! I was referring, as you know damn well, to " traditional " as a musical form, specifically IRISH TRADITIONAL.
Something others on here, if not you, might be interested in is that of " Rare 'aul mountain dew ", as performed by the Pogues and the Dubliners. I assumed it was a " Traditional " song ( your definition ) but apparently it was written some time in either the forties or fifties and first appeared in some stage musical. But most people, the " uninformed", bless us, would regard it as " traditional Irish" music.
The last thing I wanted was to cause trouble on here but seeing as you've taken this attitude Phil I would put it to you that I seriously doubt Terry Woods regards the CD version of IISFFGWG as a "travesty " because it has one, if not two, of his tracks on it.

[Guest]

Correction, I was wrong about " mountain dew ", I accept that, I was thinking of another song that I can't remember.Whatever!

[Clash Cadillac]

Sorry, at this point your argument is so egregiously cavalier that I would lose the will to live if I even attempted to address it.

love it

Mind if I steal this line to use during my "social network" debates with hard core conservative loonies? I mean this is exactly what I am usually thinking a few minutes into it.

Don't tell us you've moved the arguments with NJR to facebook?!

Nope, remember I live in South Dakota. I grew up with lots of very conservative minded influences that many of my friends from here still hold dear. George McGovern could not even win this, his home state, during his bid for President in 1972.

[NewJerseyRich]

Sorry, at this point your argument is so egregiously cavalier that I would lose the will to live if I even attempted to address it.

love it

Mind if I steal this line to use during my "social network" debates with hard core conservative loonies? I mean this is exactly what I am usually thinking a few minutes into it.

Don't tell us you've moved the arguments with NJR to facebook?!

No arguments on FB, Just Pogues fans spouting off their love for the boys

[Doktor Avalanche]

The "Go To Rhino Records" of blessed Wild Man Fischer recall has little in common with today's indie-corporate variation.

[dsweeney]

In Friday's edition of the " Ticket " entertainment supplement in the Irish Times, there is a music review section. One of the genres was under the heading of " traditional ". Irish peopl know what that means.