Those wacky Rhino Brothers have us boxed in again!!

[Fr. McGreer]

OK, so although they are clearly new pressings, the Rhino brothers appear to have reverted to the awkward running orders for both Rum and Fall From Grace, regardless of what the sleeves appear to claim.

I don't know why I bother.

The track listing are the ones of the non-remastered CDs.

AAAARRGGGGHH...very frustrating, but the image above does show the extra tracks inserted in the awkward places.

[philipchevron]

OK, so although they are clearly new pressings, the Rhino brothers appear to have reverted to the awkward running orders for both Rum and Fall From Grace, regardless of what the sleeves appear to claim.

I don't know why I bother.

The track listing are the ones of the non-remastered CDs.

AAAARRGGGGHH...very frustrating, but the image above does show the extra tracks inserted in the awkward places.

You're right, I noticed this myself last night. Perhaps I need new specs. Or perhaps wishful thinking has become a powerful visual aid.

[BelfastsLittlesHobo]

Bought this today. I couldn't resist.

[dsweeney]

Is it my imagination or do these look like the original non-remastered, non-extras disks?

If the track listings are to be believed, they are new pressings with the original vinyl track listings, as intended. That is to say, Rum does not have "Paddy Garcia" on it and Fall From Grace is unimpeded by "South Australia" and "Battle March" - great tracks, but it always made me crazy how wrongly programmed they were into the running order on the 1988 CD.

Sorry Phil, but only you could possibly feel these two tracks somehow " impeded " the " ...grace " album. They are two shots of badly needed Poguetry to ground the album in more familiar, classic territory. There is enough experimenting going on, more than enough, for the album to be considered a departure but over-all it's rooted in the same timeless, traditional music. The shite world music and eastern influences came later but with these two tracks " If I should fall..." struck the perfect balance of classic Shane material and some new sounds and styles.

[philipchevron]

Is it my imagination or do these look like the original non-remastered, non-extras disks?

If the track listings are to be believed, they are new pressings with the original vinyl track listings, as intended. That is to say, Rum does not have "Paddy Garcia" on it and Fall From Grace is unimpeded by "South Australia" and "Battle March" - great tracks, but it always made me crazy how wrongly programmed they were into the running order on the 1988 CD.

Sorry Phil, but only you could possibly feel these two tracks somehow " impeded " the " ...grace " album. They are two shots of badly needed Poguetry to ground the album in more familiar, classic territory. There is enough experimenting going on, more than enough, for the album to be considered a departure but over-all it's rooted in the same timeless, traditional music. The shite world music and eastern influences came later but with these two tracks " If I should fall..." struck the perfect balance of classic Shane material and some new sounds and styles.

You're missing the point. The tracks in question were not part of the completed album we delivered to the record company. The record company added them later. Clumsily. You don't have a case. The album the band decided upon is Poguetry enough for me, thank you.

[CM]

Imagine if the suits who run the Louvre grafted some of Leo's off-cuts onto the Mona Lisa Or stuck two scenes from Henry V into the middle of Hamlet ..

[dsweeney]

Is it my imagination or do these look like the original non-remastered, non-extras disks?

If the track listings are to be believed, they are new pressings with the original vinyl track listings, as intended. That is to say, Rum does not have "Paddy Garcia" on it and Fall From Grace is unimpeded by "South Australia" and "Battle March" - great tracks, but it always made me crazy how wrongly programmed they were into the running order on the 1988 CD.

Sorry Phil, but only you could possibly feel these two tracks somehow " impeded " the " ...grace " album. They are two shots of badly needed Poguetry to ground the album in more familiar, classic territory. There is enough experimenting going on, more than enough, for the album to be considered a departure but over-all it's rooted in the same timeless, traditional music. The shite world music and eastern influences came later but with these two tracks " If I should fall..." struck the perfect balance of classic Shane material and some new sounds and styles.

You're missing the point. The tracks in question were not part of the completed album we delivered to the record company. The record company added them later. Clumsily. You don't have a case. The album the band decided upon is Poguetry enough for me, thank you.

No, Phil I do totally take your point, don't get me wrong. I had " ...grace " originally on cassette which had the running order you speak of. But when the album came out on CD it had the two tracks in question on it, so who's to say the cassette version is more valid than the CD ? That was the CD version of the album !
I had " Rum..." originally on cassette as well and always assumed " Pistol..." was part of the album. I never knew it wasn't on the vinyl version. But again, I would say, why is the vinyl version necessarily " correct " ? I appreciate your point that the record company added the two tracks to the album you presented them but only on the CD version, which I personally prefer. Albums exist now in three formats ( at least ). Vinyl, cassette and cd. Whose to say which of the formats is " correct " ? As a for instance, off the top of my head, " Definitely maybe " on vinyl has an extra track " Sad song " on it. My cassette never had it and my cd doesn't have it, so as far as I'm concerned it isn't on the album but others will say it is.
p.s. Phil, do you know for sure what the instrumental 2nd half of " South..." is ? There is some dispute about it. The box set says " The Kerry polka " which was fine my me but some say it is most certainly not, that it is " Salmon tails up the water ". Any ideas ?

[philipchevron]

No, Phil I do totally take your point, don't get me wrong. I had " ...grace " originally on cassette which had the running order you speak of. But when the album came out on CD it had the two tracks in question on it, so who's to say the cassette version is more valid than the CD ? That was the CD version of the album !
I had " Rum..." originally on cassette as well and always assumed " Pistol..." was part of the album. I never knew it wasn't on the vinyl version. But again, I would say, why is the vinyl version necessarily " correct " ? I appreciate your point that the record company added the two tracks to the album you presented them but only on the CD version, which I personally prefer. Albums exist now in three formats ( at least ). Vinyl, cassette and cd. Whose to say which of the formats is " correct " ? As a for instance, off the top of my head, " Definitely maybe " on vinyl has an extra track " Sad song " on it. My cassette never had it and my cd doesn't have it, so as far as I'm concerned it isn't on the album but others will say it is.
p.s. Phil, do you know for sure what the instrumental 2nd half of " South..." is ? There is some dispute about it. The box set says " The Kerry polka " which was fine my me but some say it is most certainly not, that it is " Salmon tails up the water ". Any ideas ?

I do see your point, of course, but you have to accept that in 1985, when Rum* was released, and even by 1988 (Fall From Grace) CDs were not yet major contenders in the battle of the formats. In that era, only Dire Straits and Pink Floyd sold CDs in any appreciable quantity. Record companies added "bonus tracks" precisely to stimulate the sales of the new format. Nobody ever took cassettes seriously as a format anyway, but typically, the record company lazily just pasted the cassette running order in the CD version, which explains why "South Australia" and "Battle March Medley" are in such bullshit positions in what has now become the "standard" sequence. I took pains when we did the extended remasters, to restore both albums to their "correct" programme order, which are the vinyl versions, relegating "Pistol", "Battle" and "Australia" to the bonus cuts sections.

The reason I consider the vinyl versions to be the "correct" programmes is because people actually went to the trouble [Costello in the case of Rum, myself and Kirsty on Fall] of conceiving these albums in terms of Side One/Pause/Side Two, as complete entities acknowledging the boundaries of the [then] principal format, just like a visual artist considers the canvas and frame or whatever. So the answer to your question "who is to say which of the formats is correct?" is The Pogues are.

Like many trad dance tunes, "The Kerry Polka" is also known by a number of other titles, an occupational hazard in instrumental folk music all over the world. As the tradition was mainly handed down in people's fingers (their playing) and not with any verbal touchstones, as with ballads and songs, trad tunes tended to acquire titles only as an afterthought, if at all. This is why you see so many tunes listed in collections with the proper name of the person they were first learned from - the only distinguishing marks they ever really needed, I guess. But as Terry Woods wrote "The Kerry Polka" back in 1827, we went with his title. He still holds the copyright.

* Incidentally, Rum Sodomy was not actually released in CD format at all in 1985. As I posted elsewhere yesterday, the French record company was the first to put that album on CD, but that was not upon initial release either.

[DzM]

So the answer to your question "who is to say which of the formats is correct?" is The Pogues are.

"Yes yes, Monsieur Géricault. I realize that YOU may have a preference. None-the-less I have seen your fine painting more often as the cover of an album with the band's faces added over the original faces. Who is to say that what hangs in the Louvre is any more correct than the version I have seen so many times?"

[philipchevron]

So the answer to your question "who is to say which of the formats is correct?" is The Pogues are.

"Yes yes, Monsieur Géricault. I realize that YOU may have a preference. None-the-less I have seen your fine painting more often as the cover of an album with the band's faces added over the original faces. Who is to say that what hangs in the Louvre is any more correct than the version I have seen so many times?"

Hehehehe.... many a true word spoken in jest!

[dsweeney]

Of course the Pogues decide which is the " correct " version of an album, I totally accept that, without any hesitation. I simply prefer the cd version of the album with " South Australia " and " The battle march medley " in there.
I may have misunderstood you but when you say the company pasted the cassette running order on to the cd, resulting in " S A " and " T b m m " being included, you are wrong Phil. I know because I had the cassette version and the two tracks were nowhere to be found. Never. Some years later the cd came out and there they were.
I had " Rum..." originally on cassette so I don't know when it came out on cd, certainly nothing like 1985, as you say.
I understand this will be a bit contentious for you Phil but I always felt it was a deliberate decision by the record company to boost the " traditional " count on " ...grace.." to give it a more of a ( 'til then ) Pogues " feel ". They didn't add " Sketches of Spain " did they, even though it's a not a bad little number at all ? I say this not to denegrate a mother classic album in any way. Personally I love the way your own " Thousands..." leads into " South..." and " Lullaby of London " and " Battle march..." is pure traditional class. But again, that's just my personal opinion.
Right so, " The Kerry polka " it is.

[philipchevron]

Of course the Pogues decide which is the " correct " version of an album, I totally accept that, without any hesitation. I simply prefer the cd version of the album with " South Australia " and " The battle march medley " in there.
I may have misunderstood you but when you say the company pasted the cassette running order on to the cd, resulting in " S A " and " T b m m " being included, you are wrong Phil. I know because I had the cassette version and the two tracks were nowhere to be found. Never. Some years later the cd came out and there they were.
I had " Rum..." originally on cassette so I don't know when it came out on cd, certainly nothing like 1985, as you say.
I understand this will be a bit contentious for you Phil but I always felt it was a deliberate decision by the record company to boost the " traditional " count on " ...grace.." to give it a more of a ( 'til then ) Pogues " feel ". They didn't add " Sketches of Spain " did they, even though it's a not a bad little number at all ? I say this not to denegrate a mother classic album in any way. Personally I love the way your own " Thousands..." leads into " South..." and " Lullaby of London " and " Battle march..." is pure traditional class. But again, that's just my personal opinion.
Right so, " The Kerry polka " it is.

I think you're right about the cassette of IISFFGWG in the UK but if anything, that just goes to illustrate how keen the record companies were to kickstart the CD format. However, the two tracks definitely showed up on some overseas issues of the cassette. Just to further confuse the issue, Red Roses, on its first cassette and CD US release, also includes "Whiskey You're The Devil", "Muirshin Durkin" and, perhaps, I'm not sure, "Repeal".

"Sketches of Spain" was not available to Warners until we recorded it, in 1988, especially as a b side for "Fiesta". It did not exist before then. In any event, Warners were unable, legally, to do anything to our albums without our express consent, though in practice, this often just entailed a quick phone conversation with Frank Murray.

"The Battle March Medley", by the way, is not traditional. That one really was written by Terry Woods, in 1987.

And, for the record, I absolutely hate how "South Australia" follows "Thousands Are Sailing". That section of the album, "Fairytale"/"Metropolis"/"Thousands" has a very specific emotional narrative. The mood is destroyed by the ensuing sea shanty, much as I love it in its own right. However, I did not buy the album and presumably you did, which I think makes your opinion sovereign on the matter.

[Low D]

I think you're right about the cassette of IISFFGWG in the UK but if anything, that just goes to illustrate how keen the record companies were to kickstart the CD format. However, the two tracks definitely showed up on some overseas issues of the cassette.

Just to confirm that... i dubbed a cassette copy of IISFFGWG from a friend (bought in Canada) and it had the extra tracks. Later, i upgraded to a vinyl copy, and was confused at the absence of the tracks.

All the rest, of course, is opinion, vis a vis which is better. I do appreciate the flow of the running order, but missed those tracks so ended up later buying a copy of IISFFGWG on CD. And i've just last week bought a cheap copy of the remastered version on the ebay, in order to have the best of both worlds. For which, by the way, i'm grateful. It's lovely to see the Pogues take great care (when they have the opportunity, at least!) over the re-releases, in terms of running order, liner notes, packaging, and not just letting the record company rushing out a quick slap-dash job.

[philipchevron]

I think you're right about the cassette of IISFFGWG in the UK but if anything, that just goes to illustrate how keen the record companies were to kickstart the CD format. However, the two tracks definitely showed up on some overseas issues of the cassette.

Just to confirm that... i dubbed a cassette copy of IISFFGWG from a friend (bought in Canada) and it had the extra tracks. Later, i upgraded to a vinyl copy, and was confused at the absence of the tracks.

All the rest, of course, is opinion, vis a vis which is better. I do appreciate the flow of the running order, but missed those tracks so ended up later buying a copy of IISFFGWG on CD. And i've just last week bought a cheap copy of the remastered version on the ebay, in order to have the best of both worlds. For which, by the way, i'm grateful. It's lovely to see the Pogues take great care (when they have the opportunity, at least!) over the re-releases, in terms of running order, liner notes, packaging, and not just letting the record company rushing out a quick slap-dash job.

If they but knew it, Rhino Brothers could have the unstinting and lifelong support of The Pogues in the curation of our back catalogue. Sadly, nobody is ever there for long enough to establish a meaningful relationship with. Notably, our remasters and the box set all occurred while Erik James's office was constantly open to us, and it's no accident that the best reissue programmes took place on Erik's watch. Since Erik was let go, sorry, streamlined, we have once again become a distant "heritage" act to these people, useful only in keeping the "strategic marketing" targets in view. They have no interest in working with us and in turn, they do not get our cooperation. But it's still we who have to take the flak when they fuck up, as they often do.

[DzM]

Notably, our remasters and the box set all occurred while Erik James's office was constantly open to us, and it's no accident that the best reissue programmes took place on Erik's watch. Since Erik was let go, sorry, streamlined,

Incidentally, in my brief dealings with Erik he was great to work with. Someone should hire him right after they hire me.