What Is Your No. 1 Favourite Pogues Song?

[Pyro]

Yes, seems you hit it. I like tales in prose, but feelings in poetry. +I like urbanistic stuff-Something from clash, Jem Finer´s ones, from novels it is mostly 1984.

[Eyeball_Kid]

And btw-I would like to know, why people like so much those:
Fairytale
Rainy night
Pair of brown eyes
Sally MacLennane

Imho they are poor musically and not so great in lyrics...

I couldn't disagree more. I don't see inhowfar FoNY could be considered musically poor: opening with just piano and voice, full band coming in, beautiful orchestra arrangement and duet vocals - what's musically poor about that?
And don't get me started on Pair of Brown Eyes which is the song that got me into the Pogues. It's absolutely gorgeous. a green surging ocean of accordion, those single banjo notes. You really get to feel the lyrics.
It's interesting that you think Rainy Night in Soho to be "not so great in lyrics" because its lyrics are so highly praised in the favourite lyrics thread.

[Eyeball_Kid]

what other songwriters to you like or admire?

[Pyro]

Well, I don´t know many, because i like breton+irish traditionals a lot, now I can remember Joe Strummer, Kurt Cobain...Not so many of them.

Fairytale...It is truly a simple theme, yes, the piano isn´t bad, but I don´t like the composition later+I don´t like Kirsty MacColl very much (On 2001brixton academy it was sung by someone else and I liked it particulary). And the lyrics...well, I don´t want to harm fans of the song but they are so simple, they are almost primitive to me. Just my opinion.
And imho it is rather pop than anything else (whoah, I just want to know, how many assasins will come after me:-))

Rainy night - well I think lyrics are better than the music. Maybe above middle, but the music to it is ...maybe too lyric to me, but Shanely lyric, which I don´t like that much.

Pair of brown eyes+Sally - I consider two first albums to be the worst (or "the least great" to be more accurate), because they are too simple, Terry Woods is missing very much. Or his musical influence.
+shane´s voice is too naive to me.

[Pyro]

+ They are considered to be shane´s typical (except Fairytale) and I don´t like him very much. When I´ve been asked to tell my least favourite Pogue, I went for him. I like the way he sings very much, I almost adore it. But medias made him "the oneandonly" , were stating, he is just one, while the Pogues could be anybody...
I like him, but not so much, because masses like him too much imho.

And If I should compare Pogues without Shane and Shane without Pogues, it would be hard as both is exceptional, but the Pogues without Shane would win it probably. They were more unique+musically and lyrically richer.

But they together are even better.

I just regret that they aren´t playing some great tracks from Pogue Mahone on reunions

[Zuzana]

This could result in an endless discussion – and it is all just a matter of taste. I like apples, you like oranges... Anyway, variety is the spice of life, and it’s good to hear various opinions voiced here.

As for simple lyrics and music – Shane’s songs were never supposed to be an intellectual enigma: „I wanted to make pure music that could be from any time, to make time irrelevant, to make generations and decades irrelevant. I wanted not to insult people’s intelligence and not to pretend to be intellectual. ... I wanted to celebrate the seedy side of life which I enjoy.“ (from A Drink With Shane MacGowan) Yet, simple doesn’t need to mean banal – and I think that using words like „primitive“ to describe the songs is a bit too harsh. Song (or any other piece of art) doesn’t have to be sophisticated and complicated beyond measure to be impressive. But of course, what impresses me doesn’t neccessarily need to impress you...

[Eyeball_Kid]

I enjoy this discussion very much.

wasn't the theme of Fairytale written by Jem Finer? I think that's what they said said in the FoNY documentary.
I too, like Zuzana, think that 'primitive' isn't the right word to describe any of the Pogues' songs. Shane as a songwriter has in my opinion very much in comming with Townes Van Zandt. Both write lyrics that seem like they should turn out to be rather corny but somehow they manage to avoid the expected clichés or present them in a rather unusual or twisted way (as in Fairytale where you suddenly get "you're a bum / you're a punk / you're an old slut on junk" after what seems to be a more or less typical pop-love song. And Fairytale is of course a pop song but who said that's a bad thing?). It's the simplicity of Shane's lyrics that makes many of them so emotionally touching. Many songwriters who try to convey deep feelings with too sophisticated or pretentious lyrics fail. Bob Dylan is one of the few exceptions that come to mind.

Why do you think Shane's voice is too naive on the early records? I don't think his phrasing or intelligence in singing changed that much over the years. It's just the sound of his voice that's changed. So I don't think he sounds naive or something like that on the earlier records. And I don't think I understand what a naive voice would sound like? Why 'naive'? Naive as the opposite of experienced?

[Pyro]

Well when I wrote primitive I wrote it because I couldn´t find anything better. Simple sounds better I think. And I didn´t state it IS primitive, i did state it is primitive to me. But I don´t want to hide, it was inaccurate.

The theme in fairytale is indeed written by Jem Finer. As I like him so much I don´t like everything he made.

Why it sounds naive to me? I don´t know really, it´s just a feeling.
Maybe because he is rather young and in some stage of youth comes some kind of naivity (also I felt it in lyrics). But it is probably because I heard their early ages as studio tracks, not so much live recordings, where it was something different.
Opposite to experience? I don´t think so. Imho opposite to naivity is ability to look through things and ability to look at things from distance, flavoured with a bit of...coldness, although it is not necessary.

[guest]

lotta people like limp bizkit and the backstreet boys better than dylan and the band, too.

[DzM]

lotta people like limp bizkit and the backstreet boys better than dylan and the band, too.

"One man's religion is another man's belly laugh."

Ignoring the personal opinion aspects of Pyro's likes and dislikes (Which of us can really say "You're wrong" about what music somebody else likes?), he is completely correct about the changing sound of the band.

The first to releases (<i>Red Roses for Me</i> and <i>Rum, Sodomy & the Lash</i>) have a much rougher sound than the later releases. The song writing follows a more specific theme and borrows heavily from the Celtic tradition in its flavor. Later writing is more experimental, more literary. Likewise for the music - the earlier music is simpler (to my untrained ear) in its structure and execution but makes up for that with raw energy and enthusiasm. The later music is structurally much more complex and much more deliberate. The early sound of a bunch of musicians having a lark slowly fell away and was replaced with the sound of seasoned and talented musicians challenging themselves to try new things; to explore outside of the niche they had earlier created for themselves. It only follows that the vocals also evolved - the performance given as a drunken 20-year-old punk is going to be very different than the performance given by a (drunken?) 40-year-old.

But I'm rambling. This is a great conversation. Thank you, Pyro, for starting it.

[Guesting]

The sentimentality and seriousness of a Shane MacGowan song are usually in inverse proportion to the supposed "maturity" or "depth" of the diction itself. The power in Shane's songs comes from the images and scenes that his diction conjures up in the listener's mind. And, of course, Shane wasn't trying to write teenage-angst "poetry" like Nirvana or REM. If you like those kinds of bands, well, that's your bag, but you're missing the point if you approach Shane's songwriting from the same perspective.

[Simon]

pyro i respeck your opinion. But disagree. You dont like Shane because he got all the press ?? Shane never asked about the publicity he get and for all the good storys about him there are twice as many that try to write him off.And those songs you mention i cant tell why i like them (my english is to bad for that) but it is a feeling they give a feeling of past,future and present i feeling about hope,dreams,romance about nothing ever gets so bad that there is no hope. It is songs about life in all it's glory and horror

[Pyro]

DzM: You´re welcome:-)
Yes, my opinions...are just my opinions, I am not trying to tell: What I think is better what others think; or something like that. As I said, just opinions.

Seems you are very right with change of the sound. I think it´s great that even with new members and a bit new style, there was still alot of energy (IISFFGWG, White city, medley...).
I think then (I think it was Hell´s Ditch) the energy began to slowly fade out, which caused trouble to some people. But I wouldn´t say it was worse, just something a bit different.




Simon: I know very well he never asked for it. Because of this, I am a bit ashamed about my dislike. I know it is not because of him. But it IS.

An interesting opinion about his lyrics. You´re probably right. I+some of my friends like "heavyurban" lyrics, because
a) We particulary like heavyurban culture.
b) We can see that the world is better than it is shown in the music. So we´re happy:-) Well, we aren´t. Because we see it is changing from bad to worse.

It is a bit out of topic, but I hope not too much.
When I was younger, I liked fantasy (as literal genre) and when someone said that the world is interesting as well, I sent him to...well umm. I guess you know:-) But with years I fell in love with SF and explored reality that I like some parts of life (or I feel them rather, because I think that world is awful place - I won´t write why, because I could be rightfully called spammer:-))
So maybe when I grow even more I will feel Shane´s songs deeper than now, because they just don´t tell me very much. It can be because I am not Irish nor English, maybe not. I guess I will see:-)

[heurtebise]

"Rainy Night in Soho" to me seems to go on forever without anything happening. I like the lyrics but I don't find it musically that interesting.
"Fairytale" I like quite a bit, but for some reason it always strikes me as sort of out of place on IISFFGWG, like a novelty song plopped down incongruously on an album. It's probably the best Christmas song I can think of, but it's so much a Christmas song that I find it disruptive on IISFFGWG.
"A Pair of Brown Eyes" I adore, and whenever I listen to it, it's stuck in my head for days at a time.

Other total favorites:
Medley
Boys from the County Hell
My Baby's Gone
Gartloney Rats
Rake at the Gates of Hell
Once Upon a Time

[Pyro]

It was interesting though, when I was singing Rainy Night with one band, it was fun for me and I liked it particulary. But it was without those slow piano intermezzos; I think heurtebise expressed its biggest problem very well.

The same with Pair of Brown Eyes. Fun to play(guitar or tin whistle) or fun to sing.

I will try to write few problems I have with Fairytale:
I don´t like Kirsty MacColl (her opinions, her look, her voice)

It was very popular. I have a natural affinity to anything what is SO popular, because it means it is favoured by masses and I dislike masses (both crowds of people and their opinions) and masses dislike mine opinions, because they´re mostly anti-mass. Very clearly stated isn´t it
I would be against myself if I would say that everything what is liked by masses is bad, as I think that total generalization is bad. But Fairytale falls for me to the group which I dislike.

I worry I can´t feel the song, I don´t know why.