Pogue Mahone / Dark Streets 7" editions

[thefinaltaxi]

I'm always wondering about the Pogue Mahone single "Dark Streets Of London" in the Pogues discography.
I hope this is the way that Philip Chevron or another collector can help me out on this.

As far as I know the original first edition was released with plain white labels only and a plain white sleeve with a small sticker on it, saying "Póg mo Thóin".
This may be the initial limited edition of 234 which is mentioned in the discography section and was pressed in may 1984.
Then, only one month later, in june 1984 the same 7" was rereleased by Stiff records under the new band name The Pogues as BUY 207 with a picture label and a black Stiff label sleeve.

Now my question is: When did they release the pressing which is pictured in the discography (Pogue Mahone Records PM 1 - the one with nearly the same label as BUY 207 just with the bands name changed to Pogue Mahone instead of The Pogues)? In most of the discographies and if someone sells this one on ebay or on discogs, it is said that this pressing was released as early as the initial limited edition pressing or even that this is the initial pressing.

But 'm wondering if this pressing really was made in 1984? I don't think so.
Why should the band release two different versions of the same single in may 1984? One with plain labels and one with coloured ones?
Or why would they rerelease it in higher numbers already in the same months in which the initial pressing was made if there's a rerelease by Stiff records coming out only one month later? (and it must be made in quite high numbers, as you can still buy an unplayed copy on discogs for 10 Euros)

But my main point is that this 7" goes under the label name Pogue Mahone which was not established by The Pogues until 1987 (ongoing from the "Fairytale of NY" single).
And corresponding with this, I bought a new copy of that relase in 1988 via a mailorder where it was sold in bigger amounts and the price was the same as for any other new release. I don't think it was old records from 1984 rediscovered, but a new repressing of the original limited edition release which was newly released in 1988.

So I believe that this second pressing of the Pogue Mahone single was not made before 1988.
Am I totally wrong with that? I hope someone can help me out.

[philipchevron]

I posted this at first in the "Help improve the Discography" section, but it might be better to open a new topic.
Sorry for the double post.

I'm always wondering about the Pogue Mahone single "Dark Streets Of London" in the Pogues discography.
I hope this is the way that Philip Chevron or another collector can help me out on this.

As far as I know the original first edition was released with plain white labels only and a plain white sleeve with a small sticker on it, saying "Póg mo Thóin".
This may be the initial limited edition of 234 which is mentioned in the discography section and was pressed in may 1984.
Then, only one month later, in june 1984 the same 7" was rereleased by Stiff records under the new band name The Pogues as BUY 207 with a picture label and a black Stiff label sleeve.

Now my question is: When did they release the pressing which is pictured in the discography (Pogue Mahone Records PM 1 - the one with nearly the same label as BUY 207 just with the bands name changed to Pogue Mahone instead of The Pogues)? In most of the discographies and if someone sells this one on ebay or on discogs, it is said that this pressing was released as early as the initial limited edition pressing or even that this is the initial pressing.

But 'm wondering if this pressing really was made in 1984? I don't think so.
Why should the band release two different versions of the same single in may 1984? One with plain labels and one with coloured ones?
Or why would they rerelease it in higher numbers already in the same months in which the initial pressing was made if there's a rerelease by Stiff records coming out only one month later? (and it must be made in quite high numbers, as you can still buy an unplayed copy on discogs for 10 Euros)

But my main point is that this 7" goes under the label name Pogue Mahone which was not established by The Pogues until 1987 (ongoing from the "Fairytale of NY" single).
And corresponding with this, I bought a new copy of that relase in 1988 via a mailorder where it was sold in bigger amounts and the price was the same as for any other new release. I don't think it was old records from 1984 rediscovered, but a new repressing of the original limited edition release which was newly released in 1988.

So I believe that this second pressing of the Pogue Mahone single was not made before 1988.
Am I totally wrong with that? I hope someone can help me out.

It does seem clear that there were many more copies of that first single than originally claimed, though my hunch is the repress did not happen until, yes, about 1988. However, I must stress I have no cast iron evidence of this. By then, the band itself had long since lost interest in releasing its own records and the later Pogue Mahone imprint was just a vanity label allotted to the band by Warner Music or ZTT or Island or whatever, whichever party inherited the right to do so from Stiff.

On the matter of the pre-Stiff (ie second) release of "Dark Streets", I remember there was such an interim edition. What I don't know is whether this originated with Stan Brennan (Rocks Off) or was pressed up by Stiff as a ltd edition before the BUY 207 edition.

There is probably some cast iron way of determining whether a "Dark Streets" single is of the initial 234 pressing or not, but I'm afraid I am not, myself, party to this. Usual indicators - harp stickers and so on - are unreliable as these were pirated/bootlegged also. No doubt one of our Japanese or German collector friends can help us here.

[thefinaltaxi]

Thank you very much for the fast answer.
I'm aware that the Pogue Mahone label was a Stiff spin-off and not a label run by the band itself. This - and as I bought a new copy of the Pogue Mahone Dark Streets 7" in a regular shop/mailorder in 1988 - leads me to the conclusion that the repress did not happen until 1988.

I just was irritated as the edition with the coloured label is usually on sale as "the original first pressing". And as I said, I think it might even be a quite late pressing (i.e. 1988).
most people obviously don't care and of course it makes more money on ebay if its "original", but I just want to know for myself.
As I understand there was the white label/sticker edition which might have been released by the band itself (or by Rocks Off or by Stiff as a ltd edition before the regular release) and then, after Stiff officially picked them up, there was a proper release under the Pogues name just a month later. So this would make the coloured label pressing the third edition. Am I right here?

Of course it's another question whether a white label/sticker issue is one of the original ones or just a bootleg (Although I'm pretty sure that my copy of the harp sticker edition is original, as I bought it as a used copy quite early in a London record shop, it also has the affirmed matrix inscription).

[philipchevron]

Thank you very much for the fast answer.
I'm aware that the Pogue Mahone label was a Stiff spin-off and not a label run by the band itself. This - and as I bought a new copy of the Pogue Mahone Dark Streets 7" in a regular shop/mailorder in 1988 - leads me to the conclusion that the repress did not happen until 1988.

I just was irritated as the edition with the coloured label is usually on sale as "the original first pressing". And as I said, I think it might even be a quite late pressing (i.e. 1988).
most people obviously don't care and of course it makes more money on ebay if its "original", but I just want to know for myself.
As I understand there was the white label/sticker edition which might have been released by the band itself and then, after Stiff picked them up, there was a proper release under the Pogues name just a month later. So this would make the coloured label pressing the third edition. Am I right here?

Of course it's another question whether a white label/sticker issue is one of the original ones or just a bootleg (Although I'm pretty sure that my copy of the harp sticker edition is original, as I bought it as a used copy quite early in a London record shop, it also has the affirmed matrix inscription).

I have to say I am not au fait with any coloured label edition at all, which certainly adds substance to your thoughts. I actually sold several copies of both the first and second editions while I was working at Rock On. In all that time (I left in 1985 to, of course, join the band) the only other unusual edition of anything was the limited edition "cleaned up lyrics" version of "Boys From The County Hell". What colour IS the coloured label?

[thefinaltaxi]

Sorry for causing confusion.
With the "coloured label" I meant the black and white and green label (the same as the Stiff Records edition but with the band name "Pogue Mahone" instead of "The Pogues"). I used this term just in contrast to the plain white label of the initial edition.

But to which editions do you refer as first and second?
first = plain white label / harp sticker
second = Stiff Records?

And if you left from Rock On in 1985 and never have seen a Pogue Mahone "coloured label" edition (well, the black/white/green Pogue Mahone one), then it might just not have existed then (which would prove my point).

[philipchevron]

Sorry for causing confusion.
With the "coloured label" I meant the black and white and green label (the same as the Stiff Records edition but with the band name "Pogue Mahone" instead of "The Pogues"). I used this term just in contrast to the plain white label of the initial edition.

But to which editions do you refer as first and second?
first = plain white label / harp sticker
second = Stiff Records?

And if you left from Rock On in 1985 and never have seen a Pogue Mahone "coloured label" edition (well, the black/white/green Pogue Mahone one), then it might just not have existed then (which would prove my point).

OK yes. Understood. What I cannot tell you for sure, 30 years later, is whether the "2nd edition" [picture label/pogue mahone cat no] as originally issued had a green spot colour on the label or not and whether or not this indicated that it was pressed by the band or by Stiff. Single spot colour was inexpensive in the early 80s so it need not be a guide to its origins. It's worth bearing in mind too that by 1984, Stiff Records had not yet ceased playing silly buggers with misleading "collectors' editions", something they had played with since 1976.

I will say that my "hunch" corresponds to your own conclusions, however.

Juergen? Kirk? Yas? Christian?

[thefinaltaxi]

Sorry, I'm none of them. Just a supporter for almost 30 years (with gaps).
But you saw me last year in Berlin. I was in the crowd (but not the in-crowd).

Thank you very much for helping me out with this.
The main reason I started this topic was, because the edition with the Pogue Mahone picture label is usually on sale as "the original first pressing" or at least it is listed as being from 1984 (so it is on this website's discography as well).
But I believe - and you supported me on this - it might be a much later pressing.

I think the "Dark Streets Of London" 7" should be listed as:
1984 - first edition (Pogue Mahone) = plain white label / harp sticker
1984 - second edition (The Pogues) = Stiff Records
about 1988 - third edition (or second Pogue Mahone edition) = Pogue Mahone picture label rerelease

I'm glad I've bought all these releases back in the day when they all were more easily available. It must be hell for a new collector.

I also bought quite some records at Rock On, but this might have been slightly later than 1985.

[Lade]

I have all these singles.
The White label copy and Pogue Mahone copy has the same inscriptions in the run-out of the vinyl. orlake, For Luke Kelly and PM1-A on the A-side and orlake and PM1-AA on the other side. They seem to be pressed from the same mould as they are identical.
The white label came in 3 versions.
-White Label PM1
-White Label PM1 with harp sticker.
-White Label PM1 with a sticker with the face of a woman.
Then we have the second pre-stiff pressing with picture label. I also have a picture label pressing with harp sticker.

On page 95 in Pogue Mahone - The Story of The Pogues Stan Brennan says they pressed up around 234 white labels and sold them at a gig at the Irish Centre in Camden. Later they pressed about 2000 more. The last pressing is the picture label PM1.
Then we have the Stiff BUY 207 pressing wich seems to be rarer than the PM1 picture label pressing.

[philipchevron]

Sorry, I'm none of them. Just a supporter for almost 30 years (with gaps).

Sorry for the misunderstanding - I was actually just appealing to those four for better sourced info than I can offer. Lade might assist too.

[dontcallmeharp]

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4327&hilit=harp#p57076

[thefinaltaxi]

I have all these singles.
The White label copy and Pogue Mahone copy has the same inscriptions in the run-out of the vinyl. orlake, For Luke Kelly and PM1-A on the A-side and orlake and PM1-AA on the other side. They seem to be pressed from the same mould as they are identical.
The white label came in 3 versions.
-White Label PM1
-White Label PM1 with harp sticker.
-White Label PM1 with a sticker with the face of a woman.
Then we have the second pre-stiff pressing with picture label. I also have a picture label pressing with harp sticker.

On page 95 in Pogue Mahone - The Story of The Pogues Stan Brennan says they pressed up around 234 white labels and sold them at a gig at the Irish Centre in Camden. Later they pressed about 2000 more. The last pressing is the picture label PM1.
Then we have the Stiff BUY 207 pressing wich seems to be rarer than the PM1 picture label pressing.

Thank you very much. I should read my books more carefully. It seems that I missed that bit.
I also have both, the white label copy (with harp sticker) and the Pogue Mahone copy (both with the mentioned run-out). And I also have the Stiff BUY pressing.
And it is my impression to, that the Stiff pressing is rarer than the Pogue Mahone picture label pressing. But if they pressed 2000 more of that one, this makes sense.

So now everything becomes clearer. My problem was, that I doubted that the Pogue Mahone/picture label edition was really a pre-Stiff pressing. As I stated above, I believed that they were a later repressing which just used the Stiff-Artwork (replacing "The Pogues" with "Pogue Mahone"). But according to Stan Brennan in the book, it seems as they were indeed pre-Stiff.

But as the Stiff pressing was released only about a month after the initial white label pressing, it seems likely that in fact they pressed these 2000 more, but didn't sell the stock. No way they sold 2000 new copies during that one month - and after that they couldn't sell it anymore, as it was a Stiff single now.

So I may be right that the larger part of this second Pogue Mahone pressing might not have been released until the decline of Stiff Records in 1988.
What do you think? This might explain why in 1988 suddenly regular mailorders had bigger stock of new and unplayed copies of that Pogue Mahone pressing.

[oldlady]

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6493&start=15&hilit=harp

[Lade]

So I may be right that the larger part of this second Pogue Mahone pressing might not have been released until the decline of Stiff Records in 1988.
What do you think? This might explain why in 1988 suddenly regular mailorders had bigger stock of new and unplayed copies of that Pogue Mahone pressing.

The person behind http://www.rockonrecords.com/ sold quite a few of the PM1 picture label pressings in mint condition and did so until recently on musicstack. It seems he had a few boxes left in storage after the store closed. I bought two from him a few years ago. Those copies has never been played.

Also a black label test pressing exists according to shanemacgowan.de

[thefinaltaxi]

Finally it makes some sense.

It seems that 2000 copies of this edition were indeed pressed in 1984 (according to Stan Brennen in the book) and they even sold the first bunch of these with left over harp stickers (mentioned by several owners of that edition). But already one month later the same 7" was officially released by Stiff Records under the new band name.
So it's not unlikely that a large amount of these 2000 copies were not sold in that month and weren't in circulation until 1988, when Stiff Records was in decline and The Pogues records were (again) released under the Pogue Mahone label moniker. As I stated above, I bought a new copy of that relase in 1988 via a mailorder where it was sold in bigger amounts and the price was the same as for any other new release. And, as Lade says, it seems that there are still some left.

[DzM]

Geez I need to get around to making the Discography group editable.

Some day ... some day.