by MacRua Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:29 pm
The Duke of Ingmar wrote:By the way, MacRua, of course I do know the "original" meaning of "Sieg heil", but that doesn´t make it any better if someone used it now, does it !? As I said it is so closely connected to 1933 - 1945 that it really can´t be separated anymore, like it or not. I mean, the swastika is a really old symbol which dates back five or six milleniums but is nowadays so closely connected to Nazi Germany to that I think it is totally unacceptable if someone wears it on a shirt or anything.
Symbols mean nothing on their own, it’s just lines, circles, dots. Their beauty or ugliness, evil or good is in eyes of the beholder. It’s you who fill them with meanings based on stereotypes, social traditions and double standards.
You gave a great example of swastika. An ancient symbol of sun, power, universal harmony and love adopted by Nazis. You were brought up in hatred of it as others are brought up in hatred of cross, crescent or the star of David, for example. Such approach looks well justified but can 25 years of misusage cross out 5 thousand years of its history? For millions of Westerners the answer is yes. But for a milliard (or two?) of Orientals – not. For them swastika was and is a sacred symbol. In Germany it’s illegal and censored from everywhere, while Asia is full of it. Either you agree that Nazis can’t usurp it or you’ll have to declare Buddha (who according to tradition had swastikas on his soles) and Dalai Lama (whose throne is decorated with swastikas) a Nazi!
I can remind you about another two symbols which are associated with Nazis – death’s head and stiff hand salute.
So called Nazi salute (right hand salute) originated in the USA, from the military salute and the flag pledge. It was used this way since 1892, by military and civilians alike, till 1942 when at one moment something that for five decades had been a symbol of honour and pride turned into its opposite. Ridiculous? Such was President Roosevelt’s (and the Congress’) decision.
But not all of our symbols we yield that easily. Death’s head (a skull & crossbones) aka Totenkopf can’t compete with 5 or 7 thousands years old swastika maybe but it has its own history and a long tradition without any doubts. Christianity, piracy (BTW early pirates adopted it from crusaders to fool their potential victims).. As a military insignia the symbol was widely used in armies all over Europe since 18th century. In 20th century The Totenkopf was also used as the unit insignia of the Panzer forces and Luftwaffe units, but it’s associated with Schutzstaffel (SS) first of all. You see, again the Nazis adopted the Totenkopf from the historical tradition and used it for their own purposes, leaving it marked with a stigma that has continued to the present day. But was it banned and censored? No. The symbol is officially used to mark dangerous things and places (the skull and crossbones is still the only standard symbol for poison). Unofficially it’s everywhere as an emblem of numerous clubs, societies, rock bands.. It’s on rings, bandanas, shoulders.. Or do you suspect everyone with a skull tattoo of sympathy for SS?
Following this logic, one should be extremely careful choosing his everyday clothes: black shirts are for Mussolini and Mosley supporters, brown shirts – for Röhm's SA, blue shirts = O’Duffy boys, green shirts = Islamic fundamentalists, white resembles KKK robes, red is a favourite colour of leftie butchers.. Jeans and Doc Martens is skinheads’ gear..
BTW.. regarding lefties and their symbols. Hammer and sickle is covered with much thicker layer of blood than swastika and it’s still proudly paraded everywhere, surrounded with aureole of romance. Double standards in action. If you are into banning dishonoured symbols ban H&S first of all!
But better do not look at symbols and do not listen to calls. Analyse deeds. That’s where good and evil reside.
“Ye shall know them by their fruits”[quote="The Duke of Ingmar"]By the way, MacRua, of course I do know the "original" meaning of "Sieg heil", but that doesn´t make it any better if someone used it now, does it !? As I said it is so closely connected to 1933 - 1945 that it really can´t be separated anymore, like it or not. I mean, the swastika is a really old symbol which dates back five or six milleniums but is nowadays so closely connected to Nazi Germany to that I think it is totally unacceptable if someone wears it on a shirt or anything.[/quote]
Symbols mean nothing on their own, it’s just lines, circles, dots. Their beauty or ugliness, evil or good is in eyes of the beholder. It’s you who fill them with meanings based on stereotypes, social traditions and double standards.
You gave a great example of swastika. An ancient symbol of sun, power, universal harmony and love adopted by Nazis. You were brought up in hatred of it as others are brought up in hatred of cross, crescent or the star of David, for example. Such approach looks well justified but can 25 years of misusage cross out 5 thousand years of its history? For millions of Westerners the answer is yes. But for a milliard (or two?) of Orientals – not. For them swastika was and is a sacred symbol. In Germany it’s illegal and censored from everywhere, while Asia is full of it. Either you agree that Nazis can’t usurp it or you’ll have to declare Buddha (who according to tradition had swastikas on his soles) and Dalai Lama (whose throne is decorated with swastikas) a Nazi!
I can remind you about another two symbols which are associated with Nazis – death’s head and stiff hand salute.
So called Nazi salute (right hand salute) originated in the USA, from the military salute and the flag pledge. It was used this way since 1892, by military and civilians alike, till 1942 when at one moment something that for five decades had been a symbol of honour and pride turned into its opposite. Ridiculous? Such was President Roosevelt’s (and the Congress’) decision.
But not all of our symbols we yield that easily. Death’s head (a skull & crossbones) aka Totenkopf can’t compete with 5 or 7 thousands years old swastika maybe but it has its own history and a long tradition without any doubts. Christianity, piracy (BTW early pirates adopted it from crusaders to fool their potential victims).. As a military insignia the symbol was widely used in armies all over Europe since 18th century. In 20th century The Totenkopf was also used as the unit insignia of the Panzer forces and Luftwaffe units, but it’s associated with Schutzstaffel (SS) first of all. You see, again the Nazis adopted the Totenkopf from the historical tradition and used it for their own purposes, leaving it marked with a stigma that has continued to the present day. But was it banned and censored? No. The symbol is officially used to mark dangerous things and places (the skull and crossbones is still the only standard symbol for poison). Unofficially it’s everywhere as an emblem of numerous clubs, societies, rock bands.. It’s on rings, bandanas, shoulders.. Or do you suspect everyone with a skull tattoo of sympathy for SS?
Following this logic, one should be extremely careful choosing his everyday clothes: black shirts are for Mussolini and Mosley supporters, brown shirts – for Röhm's SA, blue shirts = O’Duffy boys, green shirts = Islamic fundamentalists, white resembles KKK robes, red is a favourite colour of leftie butchers.. Jeans and Doc Martens is skinheads’ gear..
BTW.. regarding lefties and their symbols. Hammer and sickle is covered with much thicker layer of blood than swastika and it’s still proudly paraded everywhere, surrounded with aureole of romance. Double standards in action. If you are into banning dishonoured symbols ban H&S first of all!
But better do not look at symbols and do not listen to calls. Analyse deeds. That’s where good and evil reside. [i]“Ye shall know them by their fruits”[/i]
