by NewJerseyRich Thu May 05, 2011 11:27 pm
Rake at the Gates of Hell: Shane MacGowan in Context (Preface, part one)
“What made Ireland a nation was a common way of life, which no military force, no political change could destroy. Our strength lies in a common ideal of how people should live, bound together by mutual ties, and by devotion to Ireland, which shrank from no individual sacrifice. This consciousness of unity carried us to success in our last great struggle. Now in that spirit we fought and won. The old fighting spirit was as strong as ever, but it has gained a fresh strength in discipline in our generation. Every county sent its boys whose unrecorded deeds were done in the spirit of Cuchulainn at the ford.”
Michael Collins (1922)
“I agree with that statement totally,” Shane MacGowan told me the week after his 50th birthday. “And if the Brits just accepted the fact that it was over and stuck to it. Everybody knew that they – Collins knew that they weren’t going to stick to their treaty. De Valera knew they weren’t going to stick to the treaty. Everybody – most people knew they weren’t going to stick to the treaty because they never stuck to a treaty in their lives – ever! Anywhere.”
“Like the Americans with the Indians,” I suggested.
“Bloody Americans! Krsssssssh,” Shane laughed as only he can. (Throughout the rest of this work I’ve edited out Shane’s trademark laugh, but you can rest assured that most of the MacGowan quotations I’ve used were punctuated by his laughter.) “Actually, there’s always been a very strong common feeling between the American Indians and the Irish,” Shane continued. “During the great famine – there were lots of them, but the big one, the really big one there was some relief in Ireland provided by the Quakers and people like that, and there was also relief sent from the Irish in America, and also from the red Indians in America.”
The day before, New Years Day, I’d made arrangements with Victoria Clarke to interview Shane in their Dublin home. My wife Anna and I had been in County Tipperary researching this book when Clarke invited us to meet her and Shane in Portlaoise. He was doing his usual guest spot in a Sharon Shannon concert on New Year’s Eve. The show was held in Portlaoise’s best hotel, and it was outstanding. MacGowan did about a half dozen songs, including the traditional “Courtin’ in the Kitchen,” which we had never heard him sing before. We expected Shane to be with Victoria when we met around noon the following morning over coffee in the hotel’s café. He wasn’t. She explained that he had just got in from the previous night, was “a bit pissed,” and was in no shape to be interviewed. She was very gracious, a lovely person all around, and invited us to come by their home in Dublin the next day.
On the way to their house we passed the Four Courts building where the Irish Civil war kicked off more than 80 years earlier. We crossed the O’Connell Street Bridge with its elevated statue of O’Connell, the 18th and 19th century Catholic Irish Republican leader. Many of the stores still had signs up that said “Merry Christmas” in Gaelic. Our cab driver, who had once emigrated to Australia and had recently returned to Ireland to get in on its economic boom, explained that the shop owners got government grants for the signs, but not if they were in English. He dropped us off in front of a row-type house, typical of those in any large city. It was brick, not fancy, but nice, just off a main street. The cabby said it was an expensive neighborhood. MacGowan later told us that his friend Ronnie Wood, the Rolling Stone’s guitarist, lived nearby.
I knocked on the door. In retrospect, I don’t know why we were surprised, but we were when MacGowan himself opened the door. Shane was surprised too. He said Victoria told him we’d be by at 3:00 PM. She never told us that. She just said to come over in the afternoon. It was only about one o’clock, so I offered to come back later. Shane said, “No,” and invited us in. Victoria was out. Press reports had prepared me for the possibility that he’d be semi-hostile. He was anything but. Shane was hospitable, friendly, and polite. He even kissed Anna’s hand. He led us through a foyer into a small room, more of a TV room than a living room. It had a hardwood floor and shelves crammed with books and some Christmas cards. Past that room, through French doors, there was a kitchen. The room we were in had a small, black leather couch opposite a flat screen LCD television mounted on the wall. A straight back wooden chair held the top hat and long leather coat he had worn onstage with the Pogues several nights before. The chair also held a paperback of a Greek classic, Homer, if I remember correctly. He said he still reads a lot. There was a guitar in a corner, a CD player, and a large stack of CDs. Overall the house was tidy and unremarkable.
MacGowan appeared to be wearing the same clothes he had on at the Sharon Shannon concert two nights past: a black suit with white pinstripes; a black shirt with white pinstripes; and a ton of chains, amulets, and assorted jewelry around his neck. He was a bit disheveled, his clothes rumpled. It seemed a distinct possibility that he’d been in that suit for three days. I don’t think he had combed his hair. I got the impression he hadn’t been up long. At his feet on the floor was an array of opened beverages: a bottle of Gordon’s gin, a bottle of white wine, Bulmer’s cider, some beer, and God knows what else. I didn’t look too closely lest he take offence. To my amazement he bent over an ordinary canvas duffel bag on the floor, reached in and pulled out an ice cold Tuborg beer. All afternoon he sipped at a Bulmer’s and a glass of clear liquid. I suspect it was the Gordon’s gin. Shane was a little wobbly on his feet, but he was lucid and coherent.
When we arrived MacGowan was watching the Gaelic channel on the television. It was a show with people doing traditional Irish set dancing. There were subtitles in English. It struck me as a sort of Irish Lawrence Welk Show. When I tried to ask him some questions he stopped me, indicating that he wanted to finish watching the show first. He was really into it. When we finally got started I asked his permission to record our conversations so that I could quote him accurately in this book. He said I could and complained that nobody is ever accurate writing about him. He paid me what I took as a nice compliment by adding that my book was the most accurate he’d seen. Perhaps that was one reason he offered to help with the project after reading early drafts of a few chapters.
Throughout the time I spent with Shane my goal was to get him to speak about things that are important to him, and things that are important to someone trying to appreciate his work. We talked a good bit about Christianity because so much of his art is steeped in Christian imagery. Among other things, I wanted to ask him about the randy priest in “Donegal Express,” but I remembered something he once said about being interviewed. “I usually know within a couple of minutes if someone’s gonna be a pain in the arse,” he said. “If people are gonna be stupid to me, then I’m gonna be stupid back, because at the end of the day, what I do isn’t that complicated. I don’t set out to confuse people. I write simple songs that people can sing along to. Like, there’s no point explaining what ‘Summer in Siam’ is about because the bloody thing’s about what it says it’s about.” Shane once told a critic from New Musical Express (NME ) who was going on and on theorizing about music, “Jesus, shut up! You're boring the arse off me.” So, instead of mentioning “Donegal Express,” I started a conversation about celibacy in the Catholic priesthood.
“The apostle Paul said it’s ok to get married if you’re – basically he said if you’re horny go ahead and get married,” I said, paraphrasing Paul’s first epistle to the Corinthians, “but if you’re not it’s better to be celibate. The church went and twisted that around.”
“No, no, no, no. I think he was a psychopath, personally,” Shane replied. “A self-obsessed psychopath. All those bloody letters! I think this, and I think that, you know? Slagging off on St. Peter who was appointed by the boss.” Being an ex-Catholic Protestant, I took exception to Shane’s casual reference to Peter being the first Pope, and designated as such by Jesus to boot.
“I don’t know,” I said. “The Bible says Jesus asked, ‘Who do people say that I am?’ Peter said that some think you’re John the Baptist come back from the dead, and some think that you’re Elijah, but I think you’re the Christ. And Jesus said, ‘You are Peter, the rock, and upon this rock I will build my church.’ You can interpret that two ways. Some people say He was saying He would build his church on Peter, but I believe He was saying on this truth that you just spoke I’ll build my church.”
“You can interpret it loads of different ways,” Shane countered, “but you’re probably – that’s definitely more likely than meaning let’s start a worldwide organization that makes lots of money out of poor people. Because that wasn’t really Christ’s trip, was it? But, yes, that’s the closest thing I’ve heard to a reasonable interpretation of something that’s been doctored and translated through several languages and all the rest of it. But if He did say that, then He meant something like that, not how it turned out.”
MacGowan is anything but a typical Catholic, but Catholicism is rooted deep within him. In the summer of 2006 during the DaVinci Code phenomenon his fiancée, Victoria Clarke, was working on a newspaper column about Kathleen MacGowan, an American woman who claimed to be a direct descendent of Jesus and Mary Magdalene. The woman had just gotten a seven-figure advance on a book based on her claim. The book contended that Magdalene was never a prostitute, but was in fact the legitimate wife of Jesus and the mother of his two children. Shane was adamant that Clarke let people know that he was no relation to Kathleen MacGowan. Stopping just short of calling the American a heretic, he told Clarke, “I think it’s blasphemous, because the whole point of the Mary Magdalene story is that she was a prostitute, and not only that, a prostitute that worked on the Sabbath, which was why they were stoning her. Jesus forgave and accepted her. If she hadn’t been a prostitute, there wouldn’t have been any point to the story.”
I was impressed with MacGowan’s knowledge of Christian scripture. Most of the Catholics I know in the States don’t know much Bible. I was even more impressed, but not surprised, by his knowledge of Irish history. What did surprise me was his reluctance to say anything negative about anything except the British. I asked for his thoughts on why Tipperary, Cork, and Kerry counties were so much more active than the other counties during the Irish Revolution.
“I didn’t say they were so much more active,” he said. “We just got it together a lot better. We were large counties. So there was a massive network going on.”
When I reminded him that both Tom Barry and Ernie O’Malley had complained that those three counties did all the fighting, and that the others were content to drill, drill, and drill some more without actually shooting anybody, he relented a bit.
“Well, Tom Barry was a rabid – was a very – I mean, yes – I’m not going to start nothing with the other counties. You know, like there were various reasons. But it’s true. But you’d have to put Claire in there with that. It’s a massive generalization, but it is basically true. Tom Barry has got every right to – he’s right, he’s right, from what my family said. They did. But Ireland is Ireland, that’s the main thing.”
For Shane MacGowan, Ireland is indeed the main thing. He gets annoyed when people mention his English accent, asserting “I'm completely Irish!” He says his Irish accent was “kicked” out of him as a schoolboy in England. Joey Cashman, his close friend and long time manager, once cautioned an interviewer, “Don’t use the phrase British Isles. It’s England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland. If you say it any other way, he’ll probably throw his glass at you.” To understand Shane MacGowan, one must understand Ireland, and Ireland’s relationship to England.
To that end we talked a good bit about Irish history. Much of our conversation was about Tipperary history, especially in regard to the Black and Tan War in the 1920s. In one regard Shane was easy to interview. I’d prepared nearly 100 questions just in case he wasn’t talkative or was terse in his answers. I needn’t have worried. He warmed to the subject and talked at length, often going off on tangents for ten or fifteen minutes at a time. At times I was tempted to interrupt him but thought it unwise. I did, however, have to interject periodically to guide the conversation and keep it on track. At times it was difficult to follow his line of thought, as he tended to go in several directions without noticeable transitions. Frequently he would stop in mid sentence, searching for just the right word before completing a thought.
(Part two of the Preface will be posted here soon.)
Rake at the Gates of Hell: Shane MacGowan in Context is available for purchase exclusively at the link to be posted on the Pogues Facebook page.
Rake at the Gates of Hell: Shane MacGowan in Context (Preface, part one)
“What made Ireland a nation was a common way of life, which no military force, no political change could destroy. Our strength lies in a common ideal of how people should live, bound together by mutual ties, and by devotion to Ireland, which shrank from no individual sacrifice. This consciousness of unity carried us to success in our last great struggle. Now in that spirit we fought and won. The old fighting spirit was as strong as ever, but it has gained a fresh strength in discipline in our generation. Every county sent its boys whose unrecorded deeds were done in the spirit of Cuchulainn at the ford.”
Michael Collins (1922)
“I agree with that statement totally,” Shane MacGowan told me the week after his 50th birthday. “And if the Brits just accepted the fact that it was over and stuck to it. Everybody knew that they – Collins knew that they weren’t going to stick to their treaty. De Valera knew they weren’t going to stick to the treaty. Everybody – most people knew they weren’t going to stick to the treaty because they never stuck to a treaty in their lives – ever! Anywhere.”
“Like the Americans with the Indians,” I suggested.
“Bloody Americans! Krsssssssh,” Shane laughed as only he can. (Throughout the rest of this work I’ve edited out Shane’s trademark laugh, but you can rest assured that most of the MacGowan quotations I’ve used were punctuated by his laughter.) “Actually, there’s always been a very strong common feeling between the American Indians and the Irish,” Shane continued. “During the great famine – there were lots of them, but the big one, the really big one there was some relief in Ireland provided by the Quakers and people like that, and there was also relief sent from the Irish in America, and also from the red Indians in America.”
The day before, New Years Day, I’d made arrangements with Victoria Clarke to interview Shane in their Dublin home. My wife Anna and I had been in County Tipperary researching this book when Clarke invited us to meet her and Shane in Portlaoise. He was doing his usual guest spot in a Sharon Shannon concert on New Year’s Eve. The show was held in Portlaoise’s best hotel, and it was outstanding. MacGowan did about a half dozen songs, including the traditional “Courtin’ in the Kitchen,” which we had never heard him sing before. We expected Shane to be with Victoria when we met around noon the following morning over coffee in the hotel’s café. He wasn’t. She explained that he had just got in from the previous night, was “a bit pissed,” and was in no shape to be interviewed. She was very gracious, a lovely person all around, and invited us to come by their home in Dublin the next day.
On the way to their house we passed the Four Courts building where the Irish Civil war kicked off more than 80 years earlier. We crossed the O’Connell Street Bridge with its elevated statue of O’Connell, the 18th and 19th century Catholic Irish Republican leader. Many of the stores still had signs up that said “Merry Christmas” in Gaelic. Our cab driver, who had once emigrated to Australia and had recently returned to Ireland to get in on its economic boom, explained that the shop owners got government grants for the signs, but not if they were in English. He dropped us off in front of a row-type house, typical of those in any large city. It was brick, not fancy, but nice, just off a main street. The cabby said it was an expensive neighborhood. MacGowan later told us that his friend Ronnie Wood, the Rolling Stone’s guitarist, lived nearby.
I knocked on the door. In retrospect, I don’t know why we were surprised, but we were when MacGowan himself opened the door. Shane was surprised too. He said Victoria told him we’d be by at 3:00 PM. She never told us that. She just said to come over in the afternoon. It was only about one o’clock, so I offered to come back later. Shane said, “No,” and invited us in. Victoria was out. Press reports had prepared me for the possibility that he’d be semi-hostile. He was anything but. Shane was hospitable, friendly, and polite. He even kissed Anna’s hand. He led us through a foyer into a small room, more of a TV room than a living room. It had a hardwood floor and shelves crammed with books and some Christmas cards. Past that room, through French doors, there was a kitchen. The room we were in had a small, black leather couch opposite a flat screen LCD television mounted on the wall. A straight back wooden chair held the top hat and long leather coat he had worn onstage with the Pogues several nights before. The chair also held a paperback of a Greek classic, Homer, if I remember correctly. He said he still reads a lot. There was a guitar in a corner, a CD player, and a large stack of CDs. Overall the house was tidy and unremarkable.
MacGowan appeared to be wearing the same clothes he had on at the Sharon Shannon concert two nights past: a black suit with white pinstripes; a black shirt with white pinstripes; and a ton of chains, amulets, and assorted jewelry around his neck. He was a bit disheveled, his clothes rumpled. It seemed a distinct possibility that he’d been in that suit for three days. I don’t think he had combed his hair. I got the impression he hadn’t been up long. At his feet on the floor was an array of opened beverages: a bottle of Gordon’s gin, a bottle of white wine, Bulmer’s cider, some beer, and God knows what else. I didn’t look too closely lest he take offence. To my amazement he bent over an ordinary canvas duffel bag on the floor, reached in and pulled out an ice cold Tuborg beer. All afternoon he sipped at a Bulmer’s and a glass of clear liquid. I suspect it was the Gordon’s gin. Shane was a little wobbly on his feet, but he was lucid and coherent.
When we arrived MacGowan was watching the Gaelic channel on the television. It was a show with people doing traditional Irish set dancing. There were subtitles in English. It struck me as a sort of Irish Lawrence Welk Show. When I tried to ask him some questions he stopped me, indicating that he wanted to finish watching the show first. He was really into it. When we finally got started I asked his permission to record our conversations so that I could quote him accurately in this book. He said I could and complained that nobody is ever accurate writing about him. He paid me what I took as a nice compliment by adding that my book was the most accurate he’d seen. Perhaps that was one reason he offered to help with the project after reading early drafts of a few chapters.
Throughout the time I spent with Shane my goal was to get him to speak about things that are important to him, and things that are important to someone trying to appreciate his work. We talked a good bit about Christianity because so much of his art is steeped in Christian imagery. Among other things, I wanted to ask him about the randy priest in “Donegal Express,” but I remembered something he once said about being interviewed. “I usually know within a couple of minutes if someone’s gonna be a pain in the arse,” he said. “If people are gonna be stupid to me, then I’m gonna be stupid back, because at the end of the day, what I do isn’t that complicated. I don’t set out to confuse people. I write simple songs that people can sing along to. Like, there’s no point explaining what ‘Summer in Siam’ is about because the bloody thing’s about what it says it’s about.” Shane once told a critic from New Musical Express (NME ) who was going on and on theorizing about music, “Jesus, shut up! You're boring the arse off me.” So, instead of mentioning “Donegal Express,” I started a conversation about celibacy in the Catholic priesthood.
“The apostle Paul said it’s ok to get married if you’re – basically he said if you’re horny go ahead and get married,” I said, paraphrasing Paul’s first epistle to the Corinthians, “but if you’re not it’s better to be celibate. The church went and twisted that around.”
“No, no, no, no. I think he was a psychopath, personally,” Shane replied. “A self-obsessed psychopath. All those bloody letters! I think this, and I think that, you know? Slagging off on St. Peter who was appointed by the boss.” Being an ex-Catholic Protestant, I took exception to Shane’s casual reference to Peter being the first Pope, and designated as such by Jesus to boot.
“I don’t know,” I said. “The Bible says Jesus asked, ‘Who do people say that I am?’ Peter said that some think you’re John the Baptist come back from the dead, and some think that you’re Elijah, but I think you’re the Christ. And Jesus said, ‘You are Peter, the rock, and upon this rock I will build my church.’ You can interpret that two ways. Some people say He was saying He would build his church on Peter, but I believe He was saying on this truth that you just spoke I’ll build my church.”
“You can interpret it loads of different ways,” Shane countered, “but you’re probably – that’s definitely more likely than meaning let’s start a worldwide organization that makes lots of money out of poor people. Because that wasn’t really Christ’s trip, was it? But, yes, that’s the closest thing I’ve heard to a reasonable interpretation of something that’s been doctored and translated through several languages and all the rest of it. But if He did say that, then He meant something like that, not how it turned out.”
MacGowan is anything but a typical Catholic, but Catholicism is rooted deep within him. In the summer of 2006 during the DaVinci Code phenomenon his fiancée, Victoria Clarke, was working on a newspaper column about Kathleen MacGowan, an American woman who claimed to be a direct descendent of Jesus and Mary Magdalene. The woman had just gotten a seven-figure advance on a book based on her claim. The book contended that Magdalene was never a prostitute, but was in fact the legitimate wife of Jesus and the mother of his two children. Shane was adamant that Clarke let people know that he was no relation to Kathleen MacGowan. Stopping just short of calling the American a heretic, he told Clarke, “I think it’s blasphemous, because the whole point of the Mary Magdalene story is that she was a prostitute, and not only that, a prostitute that worked on the Sabbath, which was why they were stoning her. Jesus forgave and accepted her. If she hadn’t been a prostitute, there wouldn’t have been any point to the story.”
I was impressed with MacGowan’s knowledge of Christian scripture. Most of the Catholics I know in the States don’t know much Bible. I was even more impressed, but not surprised, by his knowledge of Irish history. What did surprise me was his reluctance to say anything negative about anything except the British. I asked for his thoughts on why Tipperary, Cork, and Kerry counties were so much more active than the other counties during the Irish Revolution.
“I didn’t say they were so much more active,” he said. “We just got it together a lot better. We were large counties. So there was a massive network going on.”
When I reminded him that both Tom Barry and Ernie O’Malley had complained that those three counties did all the fighting, and that the others were content to drill, drill, and drill some more without actually shooting anybody, he relented a bit.
“Well, Tom Barry was a rabid – was a very – I mean, yes – I’m not going to start nothing with the other counties. You know, like there were various reasons. But it’s true. But you’d have to put Claire in there with that. It’s a massive generalization, but it is basically true. Tom Barry has got every right to – he’s right, he’s right, from what my family said. They did. But Ireland is Ireland, that’s the main thing.”
For Shane MacGowan, Ireland is indeed the main thing. He gets annoyed when people mention his English accent, asserting “I'm completely Irish!” He says his Irish accent was “kicked” out of him as a schoolboy in England. Joey Cashman, his close friend and long time manager, once cautioned an interviewer, “Don’t use the phrase British Isles. It’s England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland. If you say it any other way, he’ll probably throw his glass at you.” To understand Shane MacGowan, one must understand Ireland, and Ireland’s relationship to England.
To that end we talked a good bit about Irish history. Much of our conversation was about Tipperary history, especially in regard to the Black and Tan War in the 1920s. In one regard Shane was easy to interview. I’d prepared nearly 100 questions just in case he wasn’t talkative or was terse in his answers. I needn’t have worried. He warmed to the subject and talked at length, often going off on tangents for ten or fifteen minutes at a time. At times I was tempted to interrupt him but thought it unwise. I did, however, have to interject periodically to guide the conversation and keep it on track. At times it was difficult to follow his line of thought, as he tended to go in several directions without noticeable transitions. Frequently he would stop in mid sentence, searching for just the right word before completing a thought.
(Part two of the Preface will be posted here soon.)
Rake at the Gates of Hell: Shane MacGowan in Context is available for purchase exclusively at the link to be posted on the Pogues Facebook page.